Andy

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Posted by Richard Fife on May 21, 2000 at 23:04:01:

In Reply to: Re: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding! posted by A. C. Highfield on May 21, 2000 at 02:13:06:

Andy:

Perhaps the term �myth� was a little strong but it effectively got the point across. You are correct that protein is responsible for pyramiding but protein is also responsible for normal shell growth. I certainly can�t argue about how protein is used by the body in building the shell of a tortoise. The point that I may not effectively gotten across is that if environmental conditions are manipulated pyramiding can be eliminated even when high protein diets are fed (this is not to infer that high protein diets are safe). This leads me to believe that protein may not be the controlling factor in pyramiding and that the environment has a very major role.
I whole heartily agree that prolonged feeding of a high protein diet is detrimental to the health of a tortoise. I may disagree as to what percent of protein is safe or how it should be determined.

It is accepted that grassing tortoises should not be given animal protein because it is a complete protein (contains all the amino acids essential for a persons good health) and a tortoise�s system evidently can�t handle it. Plant proteins are incomplete. Do we know what the amino acid requirements of a tortoise are and are we satisfying those requirements? On top of this we have the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio to satisfy. When discussing protein are we talking about a percentage of dry weight or hydrated weight of the plant (pelleted foods are designated by dry weight of protein)? Should we be describing protein as a daily intake in grams as a ratio of the weight of the tortoise? How does body temperature relate to the digestion and absorption of protein? What about exposure to UV, the percent of fiber in the diet, and water intake? You use alfalfa (18% to 22% protein) as a acceptable food source because it is high in fiber. How do we really determine acceptable protein levels?

There are numerous questions that could be asked in order to answer your question concerning the two groups of T. graeca. The whole purpose of my post was to encourage people to not stop looking when we think we have found the answer. I believe I could take hatchling T. graeca into the lab, feed them French beans and alfalfa, and by manipulating environmental conditions raised �normal� tortoises.

Temperature aids in digestion and can accelerate growth when the nutritional needs are satisfied. Humidity seems to be very important in shell development. I don�t know why. I consistently get better shell growth if humidity levels are increased. In my experience dry conditions promote pyramiding.

I don�t wish to prove you wrong. I only hope that additional research can be done so unanswered questions can be answered. Your work is very important. Perhaps my questions may stimulate some additional ideas. Good luck with you work and thanks for your input!

Follow Ups:

Re: Andy A. C. Highfield 05/22/00 (3)
- Re: Andy Richard Fife 05/22/00 (2)
  - Re: Andy A. C. Highfield 05/23/00 (1)
    - Re: Andy Scott Solar 05/25/00 (0)

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: Andy: : Perhaps the term �myth� was a little strong but it effectively got the point across. You are correct that protein is responsible for pyramiding but protein is also responsible for normal shell growth. I certainly can�t argue about how protein is used by the body in building the shell of a tortoise. The point that I may not effectively gotten across is that if environmental conditions are manipulated pyramiding can be eliminated even when high protein diets are fed (this is not to infer that high protein diets are safe). This leads me to believe that protein may not be the controlling factor in pyramiding and that the environment has a very major role. : I whole heartily agree that prolonged feeding of a high protein diet is detrimental to the health of a tortoise. I may disagree as to what percent of protein is safe or how it should be determined. : It is accepted that grassing tortoises should not be given animal protein because it is a complete protein (contains all the amino acids essential for a persons good health) and a tortoise�s system evidently can�t handle it. Plant proteins are incomplete. Do we know what the amino acid requirements of a tortoise are and are we satisfying those requirements? On top of this we have the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio to satisfy. When discussing protein are we talking about a percentage of dry weight or hydrated weight of the plant (pelleted foods are designated by dry weight of protein)? Should we be describing protein as a daily intake in grams as a ratio of the weight of the tortoise? How does body temperature relate to the digestion and absorption of protein? What about exposure to UV, the percent of fiber in the diet, and water intake? You use alfalfa (18% to 22% protein) as a acceptable food source because it is high in fiber. How do we really determine acceptable protein levels? : There are numerous questions that could be asked in order to answer your question concerning the two groups of T. graeca. The whole purpose of my post was to encourage people to not stop looking when we think we have found the answer. I believe I could take hatchling T. graeca into the lab, feed them French beans and alfalfa, and by manipulating environmental conditions raised �normal� tortoises. : Temperature aids in digestion and can accelerate growth when the nutritional needs are satisfied. Humidity seems to be very important in shell development. I don�t know why. I consistently get better shell growth if humidity levels are increased. In my experience dry conditions promote pyramiding. : I don�t wish to prove you wrong. I only hope that additional research can be done so unanswered questions can be answered. Your work is very important. Perhaps my questions may stimulate some additional ideas. Good luck with you work and thanks for your input!

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