Re: Andy

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Posted by A. C. Highfield on May 22, 2000 at 06:01:19:

In Reply to: Andy posted by Richard Fife on May 21, 2000 at 23:04:01:

Posted by Richard Fife on May 21, 2000 at 23:04:01:

In Reply to: Re: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding! posted by A. C. Highfield on May 21, 2000 at 02:13:06:

Andy:
The point that I may not effectively gotten across is that if environmental conditions are manipulated pyramiding can be eliminated even when high protein diets are fed (this is not to infer that high protein diets are safe).>>

Certainly, this is possible. I�ve done it myself. However, I would strongly argue that you will see some problems in the longer term. Every dissection I have done where high rates of growth have been used have revealed evidence of internal abnormalities, primarily renal and hepatic, though bone thickness and density is also affected to greater or lesser extents (depending on trace element and D3 availability).

I believe that the evidence shows that it is by far the most common factor in clinical cases. The role of environment is important (because it affects digestion and feeding as well as metabolic rate in ectotherms) but diet, diet, diet is the main factor in 99% of cases that I have observed.

>>It is accepted that grassing tortoises should not be given animal protein because it is a complete protein (contains all the amino acids essential for a persons good health) and a tortoise�s system evidently can�t handle it. Plant proteins are incomplete.>>

Only separately. When they combine internally, complete proteins are available.

>Do we know what the amino acid requirements of a tortoise are and are we satisfying those requirements?>>

I think the answer to this is, "yes". There is some good research on this topic. Relevant references are given in my draft paper.

When discussing protein are we talking about a percentage of dry weight or
hydrated weight of the plant (pelleted foods are designated by dry weight of protein)? Should we be describing protein as a daily intake in grams as a ratio of the weight of the tortoise?>>

Yes. These are complex calculations, however. I am currently working out the figures for iguanid lizards��

Actually, I personally do not use the stuff - or hardly ever. Seen too much rapid growth and elevated serum urea levels associated with it.

>>I
believe I could take hatchling T. graeca into the lab, feed them French beans and alfalfa, and by manipulating environmental conditions raised "normal" tortoises.>>

Hmmm.. well, you�d not only have to overcome the protein issue, but also the phytic acid, purines and other anti-nutrient chemicals these are loaded with - so I would not give much for your chances!!!! Peas, beans and suchlike have consistently proved deadly in T. graeca. The urate output climbs through the roof where these are provided, even in low volumes. Gout (articular and visceral) is commonplace.

< Humidity seems to be very
important in shell development. I don�t know why. I consistently get better shell growth if humidity levels are increased. In my
experience dry conditions promote pyramiding. >

In high humidity conditions, skin and respiratory losses are reduced. Overall homeostasis is affected.

BTW, I have no problem if anyone does "try to prove me wrong" - science and knowledge gain from open debate. Just make sure you have good data to back up your arguments!

Regards,

Andy Highfield

Tortoise Trust

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: Posted by Richard Fife on May 21, 2000 at 23:04:01: : In Reply to: Re: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding! posted by A. C. Highfield on May 21, 2000 at 02:13:06: : Andy: : The point that I may not effectively gotten across is that if environmental conditions are manipulated pyramiding can be eliminated even when high protein diets are fed (this is not to infer that high protein diets are safe).>> : Certainly, this is possible. I�ve done it myself. However, I would strongly argue that you will see some problems in the longer term. Every dissection I have done where high rates of growth have been used have revealed evidence of internal abnormalities, primarily renal and hepatic, though bone thickness and density is also affected to greater or lesser extents (depending on trace element and D3 availability). : <This leads me to believe that protein may not be the controlling factor in pyramiding and that the environment has a very major role. >> : I believe that the evidence shows that it is by far the most common factor in clinical cases. The role of environment is important (because it affects digestion and feeding as well as metabolic rate in ectotherms) but diet, diet, diet is the main factor in 99% of cases that I have observed. : : >>It is accepted that grassing tortoises should not be given animal protein because it is a complete protein (contains all the amino acids essential for a persons good health) and a tortoise�s system evidently can�t handle it. Plant proteins are incomplete.>> : Only separately. When they combine internally, complete proteins are available. : >Do we know what the amino acid requirements of a tortoise are and are we satisfying those requirements?>> : I think the answer to this is, "yes". There is some good research on this topic. Relevant references are given in my draft paper. : When discussing protein are we talking about a percentage of dry weight or : hydrated weight of the plant (pelleted foods are designated by dry weight of protein)? Should we be describing protein as a daily intake in grams as a ratio of the weight of the tortoise?>> : Yes. These are complex calculations, however. I am currently working out the figures for iguanid lizards�� : <You use alfalfa (18% to 22% protein) as a acceptable food source because it is high in fiber. How do we really determine acceptable protein levels?>> : Actually, I personally do not use the stuff - or hardly ever. Seen too much rapid growth and elevated serum urea levels associated with it. : >>I : believe I could take hatchling T. graeca into the lab, feed them French beans and alfalfa, and by manipulating environmental conditions raised "normal" tortoises.>> : Hmmm.. well, you�d not only have to overcome the protein issue, but also the phytic acid, purines and other anti-nutrient chemicals these are loaded with - so I would not give much for your chances!!!! Peas, beans and suchlike have consistently proved deadly in T. graeca. The urate output climbs through the roof where these are provided, even in low volumes. Gout (articular and visceral) is commonplace. : < Humidity seems to be very : important in shell development. I don�t know why. I consistently get better shell growth if humidity levels are increased. In my : experience dry conditions promote pyramiding. > : In high humidity conditions, skin and respiratory losses are reduced. Overall homeostasis is affected. : BTW, I have no problem if anyone does "try to prove me wrong" - science and knowledge gain from open debate. Just make sure you have good data to back up your arguments! : Regards, : Andy Highfield

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