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Posted by KJ on August 02, 2000 at 15:00:34:
In Reply to: Re: Central Chinese Dion's Rat posted by Walt Deptula on August 02, 2000 at 11:44:47:
: : I think that obviously any time a somewhat aberrant snake is found dead in egg, the question of unfulfilled development (color/pattern) remains at issue. In the particular instance of this mandarina baby though it would seem difficult to imagine saturated yellow becoming grey even given complete development in terms of a living neonate.
I don't know, in a normal one, what is the coloration UNDER the grey? Could it be yellow?
> Could it be possible that retarded development in certain instances has a direct effect on genetics by somehow altering DNA or genetic codes? My understanding of DNA is that it is fully formulated at fertiization and that the course has been layed if you will.
Yes, but genes can be turned on and off.... and they are during development. Take humans: we have genes that are never used, genes that are used throughout life, genes that are used during development and then never again, etc. Forget your yellow snake for a minute -- I'm just thinking out loud here about no animal in particular.
Lets say to get a normal colored animal, you have three steps: A, B, & C. There are separate gene packets that are turned on for each step and then turned off once it is completed. An animal that dies early in development may not make it past B, but one that goes to the end may make it past C. These animals would appear different.
Sorry for oversimplifying it so much!
> In any event my glass is always half full, so I'll choose to believe it reproducable and guess that the two yellow wash babies are a positive sign.
I wasn't trying to make you see the glass as half empty. I don't see the glass as half full OR half empty. A 16oz glass filled to the halfway mark has 8oz in it in my estimation ONLY. That is a fact with denotations. The others are descriptive terms with unnecessary connotations. See my logic and how I approached it?
: : Thanks for the well wishes, we will see what DEVELOPES next year.
Eaxactly: what will be, will be.
: KJ, I forgot to address your point of the scarcity of true-blue mutations as you put it. Take a gander at the colubrid classifieds of the last two days, where you will find virtually every single poster selling mutants of some form or another.
Well, looking at it superficially you are correct and I look like I need to eat humble pie, but it doesn't hold up to a logical analysis. Lets really look at what is for sale.
First, let's ignore all of the hybrids. After all, an albino "sinaloan milk" or "black pine" is not a new mutation. It is NOTHING new, but a crap animal resulting from crossbreeding. No matter what you crossed an albino nelsoni to, it would not be a new mutation. Second, you have to through out locality phases (Miami Corns, Okeetee Corns, Indiana Bullsnakes, etc.) since they are not mutations as we mean them here. THEN you need to through out color phases. Fluorescent corns, Dayglow Corns, Sunglow Corns, Candycane Corns, Orange Candycane Corns, etc. are all ONE SINGLE MUTATION: amelanism! Everything else is simply a color phase! Those are not Mendelian mutations. Matter of fact, most of them may not be based on NEW genes at all -- just new ORDERS of genes. That isn't a mutation. Third, get rid of combined genes. If you have a hypo corn, that is one mutatation. If you have an aner corn that is another mutation. If you have a ghost corn, that is a combination of two previously encountered genes and NOT a new mutation.
So, looking at corns, how many mutations are there really out there? I can name Type A Aners, Type B Aners, Hypos, Amels, possibly a T+ Amel, the deadly ??? mutation, stripeds, motley mutants, possible bloodred (patternless ventral), lavender, caremel, ... How many more SEPARATE mutations are there beyond those few? Sure, it sounds like a lot, but how many corns were produced this year? 10,000 is such a small estimate as to be laughable. Figure out the percentages of mutations there.
How many alterna have been captured? How many mutants are there? (1 to 3 depending on how you count them.) How many Texas Rats have been captured? How many PURE mutations are there out there? (Possibley hypo and albino, leucistic, what else?) How many albino bulls have been caught? (Is it three now composing two separate genes?) How many Cal-Kings have been captured or bred? 100s of thousands? How many mutations
are there? Less than 15? Figure the percentages. They are rare, aren't they? Granted, we are making them higher and higher as we interbreed siblings.
I'm a small breeder. This and last year had me at about 1,000 babies. How many were mutations that could even POSSIBLE be new and genetic? MAYBE 1.... and I don't even think it is genetic! That's rare.... especially when you consider the lack of any in previous years...lol.
What one needs to consider is NOT selective breeding or the NUMBER of actual mutations. What we were referring to was the percentage of mutations per animals in question (e.g., rare or common).
BTW, I don't think anyone thought I was counting harmful mutations either. A snake born with no head may be able to pass that on to descendants, but I doubt if it would live that long.
: In fact KJ, I think could you rightfully refer to the number of genetic mutants in American herpdom a plague at this point.
Maybe...or a saviour. Where would herpetoculture be at without these morphs to attract novices? Back where it was in the 70s, that is for sure. I wonder if now is an improvement or not.
As with all things, it has its great advantages, but there are some SERIOUS drawbacks that make me worry about it. I almost wish herpetoculture was still the SHUNNED hobby.
: So as not to be considered a hypocrite, I should point out that I keep a number of different types of snakes with naturally occurring genetic mutations, one of which I have had the good fortune to have produced myself. Where have all the wild state animals gone? Perhaps to European keepers, who seem to have always had a better perspective on herp reality and genetic flaws (ie.albinos) than we. This little rant is based on the fact that I am really evolving into a thorough dislike of anything albino although some other aberrancies are still somewhat intriguing to me. This I realize is not necessarily a totally consistant point of view, but we are not runamuck by other genetic abnormalities to any level approaching the state of amelanistic morphs here.
How is a CB normal looking animal different from an albino cousin? Neither one is natural. One is just less obviously so.
: Two more things, KJ, last year while driving home one afternoon I came across a fresh DOR adult albino snapping turtle.
Maybe someone bleached it to play a practical joke on you.
Seriously, look at numbers again. How many other WILD albino snappers have you seen? Heck, I've probably captured more sliders and snappers (and bullfrogs & pigfrogs for that matter) than most people in the US are lucky enough to see. How many obviously mutated ones have I encountered? Zero.
Growing up down-the-bayou (we were a 30 minute boat ride to the nearest road) in south LA got me seeing thousands of snakes per year (water snakes, kings, garters, and cottonmouths mostly). How many can I count that looked seriously mutated? 2....and I don't know to this day what one of them was. I have no idea if either were inheritable or not.
Wanna talk about catfish? I've seen wierd things commercially harvested. We even caught (on bait) a catfish that was completely skinned! How many albinos did I see? A picture of ONE caught at around 45-50lbs. Cool.
: Finally, if I were to produce an amelanistic multistriata this season, I probably won't be giving it away, but deep inside I won't be throwing any parties either.
But would you throw parties when the couple of extra thousand dollars were brought in by it....lol
KJ
