Re: Central Chinese Dion's Rat

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Posted by KJ on August 04, 2000 at 11:07:04:

In Reply to: Re: Central Chinese Dion's Rat posted by Walt Deptula on August 03, 2000 at 00:44:58:

: I never said that gentetic mutations were common, KJ, but I do feel they are not as exceedingly rare as you seem to believe. For each example that you cite, I can list many naturally occurring genetic aberrancies.

Our differences throughout this thread are over what is "rare" and what is "many." Even here you or only listing live a mean of 5 or less traits per animals that are produced/captured in the thousands. I can't think of that as anything but extremely uncommon (e.g., rare)....lol.

: Hell, I have personally produced, witnessed, found, and worked with many. I produced the first anerythristic celaenops from two wild animals. These snakes came from the same road in different years. In temporalis, we have anerythristic, t-pos amelanism, striping from two different locales. In syspila, amelanistic animals have been found in several states in different decades, melanistic and/or anerythristic reds have been found. Dave Blody produced hypo reds and now there exists a unrelated line of hypos originating from a different state. An amelanistic gentilis was found a year ago, an anerythristic form also exists. Two pure unrelated lines of anerythristic amaura have been found in the wild. A patternless phase was produced from wild stock by Southern Reptiles. Several different populations of amelanistic t.triangulum have been found in different states, a leucistic Indiana colony existed historically, and I PERSONALLY have found a wildly aberrant t.triangulum that may possess more than one genetic mutation although this has not been proven out yet. Anerythristic taylori and annulata are out there as well. These are just a few examples of American triangulum off the top of my head.

OK, but what is the percentage of those new mutations as per babies born and/or animals collected? Is it 0.001? or less? Heck, what is rare? If you only found one snake per 1000 herping trips, would you call them rare, common, or in-between?

: By the way, you mentioned alterna, so we should point out as you hinted that there exists anerythristic alterna (Dan Johnson) and hypo? alterna (Now in Brian B's possession) and striped alterna as well.

So three out of ?? LOL. See my point? With the number of animals being produced, the number of mutations popping up still IS rare. That doesn't mean that they are out there -- it just means that the chances of a dead, odd-looking baby being a mutation are NOT favorable. Granted, it is MUCH higher than for a pair that didn't spit out any odd (dead or alive) babies at all.

: Rest assured, KJ, nobody bleached the turtle I found either.

OK, that was a joke.

: A CB normal "wild state" animal differs from its amelanistic cousin in that it is a reproduction of a genetically superior animal while the amelanistic form is a reproduction of a fortunate genetically inferior survivor. You cited an example of a genetically harmful mutation with no head, well how does this differ in nature from an amelanistic form which would clearly be a potentially harmful form to any unfortunate offspring of the original genetic keyholder. Albinos don't generally fare much better in the wild than would a "harmful" trait carrier.

What about albino salamanders in caves? It doesn't seem harmful to them. Matter of fact, it seems beneficial. WE do not decide beneficial from harmful... Mother Nature does.

Besides, all mutations do are increase or decrease the chances that a certain animal's genes will be carrier on into future generations. That first albino Corn probably has more descendants than any other cornsnake ever born in the world! Funny, but that is serious! In the wild or in captivity, the advantage of that mutation is evident.

That is a fact. However, I'm not so blind as to think that 1 captive corn equals one wild corn.... or even 100 wild corns. I'd give up every snake I've got an never keep any again if God himself would come down and say that is the price I would have to pay to assure that the wild populations stayed pure and didn't go extinct by Man's hands. I value the wild animals -- that I can't even see -- much more than all of the CB animals in the world.

: One could argue that an amelanistic animal is a harmful gene carrier.

Or beneficial.... see cave salamanders.... or my corn snake analogy.

:While I'm on my soapbox, KJ, let me mention two points I bet we are in agreement on. First, I've seen several posts by breeders lately saying that they are offering considerable discounts on hatchlings because they don't have time to feed the babies. If you don't have time to feed them, you ought not be producing them. Simple.

Well, I'm kinda biased on that. I believe in the old-school division of herpetoculture where you have breeders, jobbers, wholesalers, and retailers. Now, breeders can retail and wholesalers can jobber (etc), but you still have those rungs on the market's ladder. Jobbers are the ones who would by out-the-egg clutches from breeders or buy in bulk from wholesalers. Everyone "makes" money and the price of the market isn't destroyed. What is hurting the trade are breeders selling perfectly all of their animals retail at wholesale prices day-in and day-out.

My behavior and thoughts on this matter are very convoluted. I agree with you, BUT I don't see anything wrong with it if you PLAN ahead to handle it that way. I'll happily expand upon this if you want, but it should be a new thread (or at least a new PART of this thread), don't you think?

: Second, there exists no bigger danger to the future of this hobby/business than that which the proliferation of hybrids poses. This is an insidious poisoning of the fabic of the hobby that despite claims by its advocates offers not one single positive element to future generations.

Trust me, my opinions on this matter are NOT kept quite. All I can say to some of those hybrid breeders is that to do what they are doing, they must be VERY knowledgeable. Just think what they could do FOR herpetoculture instead of TO herpetoculture!

Other than that, I won't even get on that subject because hybrids just ruin my day.

: It is not my intent to offend anyone, just to clearly state my own values.

I hope you don't think that anything in any of these posts could even come close to offending me. Blindness and denial of ignorance offend me. Differences in opinions with supporting evidence are my intellectual food! I enjoy these threads more than I enjoy anything else in these forums.

Thanks for them.
KJ

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: : : : I never said that gentetic mutations were common, KJ, but I do feel they are not as exceedingly rare as you seem to believe. For each example that you cite, I can list many naturally occurring genetic aberrancies. : Our differences throughout this thread are over what is "rare" and what is "many." Even here you or only listing live a mean of 5 or less traits per animals that are produced/captured in the thousands. I can't think of that as anything but extremely uncommon (e.g., rare)....lol. : : Hell, I have personally produced, witnessed, found, and worked with many. I produced the first anerythristic celaenops from two wild animals. These snakes came from the same road in different years. In temporalis, we have anerythristic, t-pos amelanism, striping from two different locales. In syspila, amelanistic animals have been found in several states in different decades, melanistic and/or anerythristic reds have been found. Dave Blody produced hypo reds and now there exists a unrelated line of hypos originating from a different state. An amelanistic gentilis was found a year ago, an anerythristic form also exists. Two pure unrelated lines of anerythristic amaura have been found in the wild. A patternless phase was produced from wild stock by Southern Reptiles. Several different populations of amelanistic t.triangulum have been found in different states, a leucistic Indiana colony existed historically, and I PERSONALLY have found a wildly aberrant t.triangulum that may possess more than one genetic mutation although this has not been proven out yet. Anerythristic taylori and annulata are out there as well. These are just a few examples of American triangulum off the top of my head. : OK, but what is the percentage of those new mutations as per babies born and/or animals collected? Is it 0.001? or less? Heck, what is rare? If you only found one snake per 1000 herping trips, would you call them rare, common, or in-between? : : By the way, you mentioned alterna, so we should point out as you hinted that there exists anerythristic alterna (Dan Johnson) and hypo? alterna (Now in Brian B's possession) and striped alterna as well. : So three out of ?? LOL. See my point? With the number of animals being produced, the number of mutations popping up still IS rare. That doesn't mean that they are out there -- it just means that the chances of a dead, odd-looking baby being a mutation are NOT favorable. Granted, it is MUCH higher than for a pair that didn't spit out any odd (dead or alive) babies at all. : : Rest assured, KJ, nobody bleached the turtle I found either. : OK, that was a joke. : : A CB normal "wild state" animal differs from its amelanistic cousin in that it is a reproduction of a genetically superior animal while the amelanistic form is a reproduction of a fortunate genetically inferior survivor. You cited an example of a genetically harmful mutation with no head, well how does this differ in nature from an amelanistic form which would clearly be a potentially harmful form to any unfortunate offspring of the original genetic keyholder. Albinos don't generally fare much better in the wild than would a "harmful" trait carrier. : What about albino salamanders in caves? It doesn't seem harmful to them. Matter of fact, it seems beneficial. WE do not decide beneficial from harmful... Mother Nature does. : Besides, all mutations do are increase or decrease the chances that a certain animal's genes will be carrier on into future generations. That first albino Corn probably has more descendants than any other cornsnake ever born in the world! Funny, but that is serious! In the wild or in captivity, the advantage of that mutation is evident. : That is a fact. However, I'm not so blind as to think that 1 captive corn equals one wild corn.... or even 100 wild corns. I'd give up every snake I've got an never keep any again if God himself would come down and say that is the price I would have to pay to assure that the wild populations stayed pure and didn't go extinct by Man's hands. I value the wild animals -- that I can't even see -- much more than all of the CB animals in the world. : : One could argue that an amelanistic animal is a harmful gene carrier. : Or beneficial.... see cave salamanders.... or my corn snake analogy. : : :While I'm on my soapbox, KJ, let me mention two points I bet we are in agreement on. First, I've seen several posts by breeders lately saying that they are offering considerable discounts on hatchlings because they don't have time to feed the babies. If you don't have time to feed them, you ought not be producing them. Simple. : Well, I'm kinda biased on that. I believe in the old-school division of herpetoculture where you have breeders, jobbers, wholesalers, and retailers. Now, breeders can retail and wholesalers can jobber (etc), but you still have those rungs on the market's ladder. Jobbers are the ones who would by out-the-egg clutches from breeders or buy in bulk from wholesalers. Everyone "makes" money and the price of the market isn't destroyed. What is hurting the trade are breeders selling perfectly all of their animals retail at wholesale prices day-in and day-out. : My behavior and thoughts on this matter are very convoluted. I agree with you, BUT I don't see anything wrong with it if you PLAN ahead to handle it that way. I'll happily expand upon this if you want, but it should be a new thread (or at least a new PART of this thread), don't you think? : : Second, there exists no bigger danger to the future of this hobby/business than that which the proliferation of hybrids poses. This is an insidious poisoning of the fabic of the hobby that despite claims by its advocates offers not one single positive element to future generations. : Trust me, my opinions on this matter are NOT kept quite. All I can say to some of those hybrid breeders is that to do what they are doing, they must be VERY knowledgeable. Just think what they could do FOR herpetoculture instead of TO herpetoculture! : Other than that, I won't even get on that subject because hybrids just ruin my day. : : It is not my intent to offend anyone, just to clearly state my own values. : I hope you don't think that anything in any of these posts could even come close to offending me. Blindness and denial of ignorance offend me. Differences in opinions with supporting evidence are my intellectual food! I enjoy these threads more than I enjoy anything else in these forums. : Thanks for them. : KJ

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