H. h. alvarezi = H. h. charlesbogerti

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Posted by HerpNut on January 15, 2002 at 03:25:47:

In Reply to: Re: It is a Blue Beaded, H. horridum (charlesbogerti) alvarezi posted by thats not an alvarezi beaded lizard........more on January 14, 2002 at 21:43:01:

Black Beaded Lizard, H. h. alvarezi, are melanistic as adults only. Black Beadeds hatch very vividly colored, just like Common or Mexican Beaded Lizard, H. horridum. They go through an ontogenetic color chage as the mature. The do not always completely loose their markings either.

Blue or Guatemalan Beaded Lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti, is the southern most subspecie. only found in Guatemala.

Blue or Guatemalan Beaded Lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti, is now considered synonymous with H. h. alvarezi.

I personaly do not agree. Besides the fact that H. h. alvarezi become melanistic with age and H. h. chalesbogerti does not. Both subspecies live in different micro-environments. And, there is over 150 miles of unsuitable habitat between recoded ranges of H. h. alvarezi and H. h. chalesbogerti.

According to Janice Perry form the Sonora Desert Museum in Tucson, AZ. Janice has done DNA testing to evaluate Heloderma horridum subspecies and concluded that H. h. charlesbogerti is geneticly unidentifiable from H. h. alvarezi.

H. h. alvarezi/charlesbogerti DNA is considerably different from DNA of H. horridum and DNA of H. h. exasperatum.

However, I am not a Herpetologist or a taxonomist autority to dissagree with Janice P. hard work. I am just another reptile hobbiest.

HerpNut

: alvarezi beadeds are pitch black. no trace what so ever of yellow markings on their body. i've never heard the term blue beaded used to describe c. bogerti beadeds. i think you combined to sub-species into one description. i've seen, photographed, and held alvarezi beadeds and that looks nothing like them. alvarezi are so uncommon, there's no mistaking it once you see them.

Follow Ups:

i finf it hard to believe that two sub-species of beaded lizards........ steve 01/15/02 (8)
- Re: i finf it hard to believe that two sub-species of beaded lizards........ HerpNut 01/15/02 (7)
  - Hey guys, what about the different physical characteristics...... kerry 01/15/02 (2)
    - Kerry, What are you talking about???... More... HerpNut 01/15/02 (1)
      - From what I've read about the two...... kerry 01/16/02 (0)
  - IS THIS LUIS.........aka herp nut?????? whats your real name? steve 01/15/02 (3)
    - Ssshhh.... I am HerpNut.... Steve, e-mail me....n/p HerpNut 01/15/02 (2)
      - Luis, did you ever get your beadeds back? n/p John 01/15/02 (1)
        
        John... HerpNut 01/17/02 (0)
PS. I have kept both subspecies...n/p HerpNut 01/15/02 (16)
- yes, but have you hatched both sub-species?? steve 01/15/02 (15)
  - Review your reference books....Alvarezi does not hatch out black. HerpNut 01/15/02 (14)
    - And I thought we were bad............. Kevin Earley 01/16/02 (13)
      - Re: And I thought we were bad............. ag 01/16/02 (4)
        
        actually ag, the line between exasperatum and horridum..... steve 01/16/02 (3)
        
        Re: actually ag, the line between exasperatum and horridum..... ag 01/16/02 (2)
        
        ag if you saw enough of them overtime, you could tell the difference steve 01/17/02 (1)
        
        Re: ag if you saw enough of them overtime, you could tell the difference John 01/17/02 (0)
      - See...We have 3-4 Subspecies...hehehe..n/p HerpNut 01/16/02 (7)
        
        Re: See...We have 3-4 Subspecies...hehehe..n/p jherps 01/17/02 (5)
        
        full of what mr. j herp????????? steve 01/17/02 (4)
        
        Re: full of what mr. j herp????????? jherps 01/17/02 (3)
        
        Yep, you really "stured" things up.......n/p GM2 01/17/02 (0)
        
        Shut up Jason!!!....More... HerpNut 01/17/02 (1)
        
        porque? HERP-NUT?? is she good looking or somethin.... steve 01/17/02 (0)
        
        translation= MORE CONFUSION...................lol n/p steve 01/16/02 (0)

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: Black Beaded Lizard, H. h. alvarezi, are melanistic as adults only. Black Beadeds hatch very vividly colored, just like Common or Mexican Beaded Lizard, H. horridum. They go through an ontogenetic color chage as the mature. The do not always completely loose their markings either. : Blue or Guatemalan Beaded Lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti, is the southern most subspecie. only found in Guatemala. : Blue or Guatemalan Beaded Lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti, is now considered synonymous with H. h. alvarezi. : I personaly do not agree. Besides the fact that H. h. alvarezi become melanistic with age and H. h. chalesbogerti does not. Both subspecies live in different micro-environments. And, there is over 150 miles of unsuitable habitat between recoded ranges of H. h. alvarezi and H. h. chalesbogerti. : According to Janice Perry form the Sonora Desert Museum in Tucson, AZ. Janice has done DNA testing to evaluate Heloderma horridum subspecies and concluded that H. h. charlesbogerti is geneticly unidentifiable from H. h. alvarezi. : H. h. alvarezi/charlesbogerti DNA is considerably different from DNA of H. horridum and DNA of H. h. exasperatum. : : However, I am not a Herpetologist or a taxonomist autority to dissagree with Janice P. hard work. I am just another reptile hobbiest. : HerpNut : : alvarezi beadeds are pitch black. no trace what so ever of yellow markings on their body. i've never heard the term blue beaded used to describe c. bogerti beadeds. i think you combined to sub-species into one description. i've seen, photographed, and held alvarezi beadeds and that looks nothing like them. alvarezi are so uncommon, there's no mistaking it once you see them.

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H. h. alvarezi = H. h. charlesbogerti

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