Ssshhh.... I am HerpNut.... Steve, e-mail me....n/p

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Posted by HerpNut on January 15, 2002 at 14:49:41:

In Reply to: IS THIS LUIS.........aka herp nut?????? whats your real name? posted by steve on January 15, 2002 at 14:07:34:

: : Steve,

: : How are you???

: : We are NOT looking at two "undeniably" different DNA's.

: : We are looking at two "undeniable" IDENTICAL DNA's

: : Like I stated previously:

: : I personaly do not agree!!!! Alvarazi and Charlesbogerti to me are different, that is my story and I am sticking with it!!!

: : However, I am just a reptile hobbiest...

: : A Herpetologist has done DNA research from blood samples of a significant number of samples from captive specimens within the USA, and possibly from recognized Zoos of Maxico.

: : This Herpetologist research indicates that DNA from H. h. alvarezi, (Borget and Del Campo, 1956) when compared to all subspecies DNA is geneticly speaking un-identifiable with DNA from H. h. charlesbogerti, (Campbell and Vannini, 1988).

: : That DNA research study also shows that H. h. alvarezi/charlesbogerti DNA is considerably different from DNA of H. horridum and DNA of H. h. exasperatum.

: : When I said that H. h. charlesbogerti is now considered synonymous with H. h. alvarezi, it is NOT a personal opinion, It is a FACT. Based upon scientific research findings by a Herpetologist working in a proffecional manner.

: :
: : DNA test results came from a DNA testing laboratory. That to me is a solid fact.

: : H. h. charlesbogerti, was described by Campbell and Vannini, in 1988. H. h. alvarezi, was descrived by Borget and Del Campo, in 1956. Therfore, H. h. charlesbogerti is now considered H. h. alvarezi.

: : Now we have the Mexican Alvarezi form, the melanistic Beaded H. h. alvarezi.

: : And, the Blue or Guatemalan Alvarezi form of H. h. (charlesbogerti) alvarezi.

: : Just my $0.02!!!

: : HerpNut

: : PS: Melanistic Beadeds are not solid black as hatchilings. Review your literature...

: :
: :
: : : that have two "undeniably" different dna's can be considered as you put it synonymous with each other. thats contradicting..also i don't believe that black beadeds hatch with any color and go through an ontogenetic change to a more melanistic looking lizard. if you're seeing black beadeds with color as hatchlings they aren't pure alvarezi, but more then likely integrades. if a hatchling beaded comes into this world with any trace of color on it will not disappear, but in fact will stay with it for the remainder of its life. the color might fade but not disappear. i've had exasperatums that were off the hook as hatchlings but as they matured they kept the same pattern but the yellow became more dull and less striking. i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder just as the below debate was presented with the gilas.

: :
: : : : : alvarezi beadeds are pitch black. no trace what so ever of yellow markings on their body. i've never heard the term blue beaded used to describe c. bogerti beadeds. i think you combined to sub-species into one description. i've seen, photographed, and held alvarezi beadeds and that looks nothing like them. alvarezi are so uncommon, there's no mistaking it once you see them.

Follow Ups:

Luis, did you ever get your beadeds back? n/p John 01/15/02 (1)
- John... HerpNut 01/17/02 (0)

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: : : Steve, : : : How are you??? : : : We are NOT looking at two "undeniably" different DNA's. : : : We are looking at two "undeniable" IDENTICAL DNA's : : : Like I stated previously: : : : I personaly do not agree!!!! Alvarazi and Charlesbogerti to me are different, that is my story and I am sticking with it!!! : : : However, I am just a reptile hobbiest... : : : A Herpetologist has done DNA research from blood samples of a significant number of samples from captive specimens within the USA, and possibly from recognized Zoos of Maxico. : : : This Herpetologist research indicates that DNA from H. h. alvarezi, (Borget and Del Campo, 1956) when compared to all subspecies DNA is geneticly speaking un-identifiable with DNA from H. h. charlesbogerti, (Campbell and Vannini, 1988). : : : That DNA research study also shows that H. h. alvarezi/charlesbogerti DNA is considerably different from DNA of H. horridum and DNA of H. h. exasperatum. : : : When I said that H. h. charlesbogerti is now considered synonymous with H. h. alvarezi, it is NOT a personal opinion, It is a FACT. Based upon scientific research findings by a Herpetologist working in a proffecional manner. : : : : : : DNA test results came from a DNA testing laboratory. That to me is a solid fact. : : : H. h. charlesbogerti, was described by Campbell and Vannini, in 1988. H. h. alvarezi, was descrived by Borget and Del Campo, in 1956. Therfore, H. h. charlesbogerti is now considered H. h. alvarezi. : : : Now we have the Mexican Alvarezi form, the melanistic Beaded H. h. alvarezi. : : : And, the Blue or Guatemalan Alvarezi form of H. h. (charlesbogerti) alvarezi. : : : Just my $0.02!!! : : : HerpNut : : : PS: Melanistic Beadeds are not solid black as hatchilings. Review your literature... : : : : : : : : : : that have two "undeniably" different dna's can be considered as you put it synonymous with each other. thats contradicting..also i don't believe that black beadeds hatch with any color and go through an ontogenetic change to a more melanistic looking lizard. if you're seeing black beadeds with color as hatchlings they aren't pure alvarezi, but more then likely integrades. if a hatchling beaded comes into this world with any trace of color on it will not disappear, but in fact will stay with it for the remainder of its life. the color might fade but not disappear. i've had exasperatums that were off the hook as hatchlings but as they matured they kept the same pattern but the yellow became more dull and less striking. i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder just as the below debate was presented with the gilas. : : : : : : : : : alvarezi beadeds are pitch black. no trace what so ever of yellow markings on their body. i've never heard the term blue beaded used to describe c. bogerti beadeds. i think you combined to sub-species into one description. i've seen, photographed, and held alvarezi beadeds and that looks nothing like them. alvarezi are so uncommon, there's no mistaking it once you see them.

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