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Posted by terryp on February 01, 2003 at 12:42:46:
In Reply to: The question on my mind is . . .> posted by Shanty on January 31, 2003 at 19:17:57:
on my last post was: "Do you know if the 2 snakes pictured on your website as male founder and female founder are the ones Adam picked up from the breeder in Phoenix?". You state in your post that Adam Block said the pair you now have "were from 2 different sources". That works for me. I can see where I could be combining a snake purchase with a technical discussion so I'll try not to do it from now on. I'd like to touch base on a little taxonomy of bairdi. Technically, as you stated, Pantherophis bairdi has no subpecies, at this time, so it is Pantherophis bairdi. You can't have a cross because one parent is silverish and the other parent is orange. Yes, without locale data, you have to go with "generic", "strain", "bloodline", etc. At some point in time, bairdi were coined or classified as "Texas" and "Mexican". We seem to be using these 2 classifications to indicate which side of the Rio Grande River the snake is from, in otherwords locality. We also have attached color to the 2 classifications as to whether the snake is "silverish" with orange highlights mixed in or "orange" with a gray head. Okee Dokee. I'm not making fun of it, color is and/or can be good data. Technically, mind you, taxonomy right now says they are the same snake. I think there is DEFINATELY a "Texas" and "Mexican" bairdi. You can name them how you want, but there are at least 2 distinct snake populations with physical and behavior differences. I think that there are "Texas bairdi below the Rio Grande in the areas where they are next to the Texas locale ones. Then there is a "Mexican" baidi located in Nuevo Leon where they are not next to any Texas populations. Take a look at the range maps. The "orange" or "darker" bairdi seem to be in populations that are in areas of higher elevation (4,00 feet and above). I'm drawing these statements from the data I've been reading and have been supplied by people like yourself Shannon, and KJ, and several e-mails, etc. I hope I am not putting words in anybodies mouth. KJ has sent me alot of info and data on Bairdi in addition to answering and critiquing (can't think of a better word) my questions and answers. There are populations of Texas bairdi that are located in higher elevation and they tend to follow the Nuevo Leon somewhat in color. They are still Texas bairdi, but could be confused with their counterpart Mexican bairdi from Nuevo Leon. One of my pairs of Mexican Bairdi are produced by parents collected on a permit in Nuevo Leon that was issued around 1985. I don't think there's been many if any permits issued since that time. I can't see a whole lot of Mexican Bairdi that came from or would be collected in Mexico. Bottom line is that's a mighty fine Mexican bairdi looking Texas Bairdi you have unless someone proves it came from the Nuevo Leon area of Mexico or unless Adam Block would like to inform me he misrepresented the trio he sold and shipped me. You are correct that the male looks like a "Mexican" bairdi and it concurs with Dwight making a post that he recalls Adam Block posting statements that he was crossing a "Tex" with a "Mex" bairdi. Something you shouldn't be able to accomplish without locale data. Oops I wasn't supposed to tie that back to the snake deal. I'm sorry about that. You're right Shannon, the founders you have are beautiful bairdi and produce awesome offspring; I have a trio myself. It's imperative for me now that we take one of my females and breed her back to that male founder. Let's see what that breeding produces.
:Terry -- my "example" of a bairdi from just across the Rio Grande was just that, an example. If Adam says these are Texas bairdi, then the male looks more Mexican than Texan; that's all I am asserting--he "looks" like a Mexican bairdi. Not that he "IS" a Mexican bairdi because I DO NOT KNOW.
:And I don't know what Adam said on this forum several months or a few years ago. I know what he told me--that the founder pair--and that is the pair I have--were from TWO different sources but he did not offer that they were, in fact, Texas bairdi. But if he did SAY he crossed some bairdi from the Texas and Mexican lines, then this COULD BE the pair. I am putting 2 + 2 together here. Only Adam can provide the final answer, and I am guessing you want it to be 4.
:In any event, I have the founder pair, and I will sell their offspring as generic bairdi. That's what you have no matter if they are Texas bairdi from two different identifiable locales, or from two unidentifibale locales, or from a Mexican X Texas bairdi pairing--Pantherophis bairdi is Pantherophis bairdi. I understand your differentiation, but . . . I can't offer anything more.
:Shannon
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