Re: Intergrade

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Posted by Alan Garry on March 20, 2002 at 15:01:36:

In Reply to: Intergrade posted by robc on March 20, 2002 at 10:44:37:

I'm no geneticist, but saying the East Texas gutatta's are cornsnakes rather than emoryi seems to be going in the complete opposite direction from the clade theory that is being assigned to the obsoleta complex. The exact same Mississippi river that separates the true red blotched corns from all other populations is also the greatest barrier that separates the western clade from the other two clades in elaphe obsoleta. So does this mean cornsnakes freely cross wide rivers, while it almost never happens with elaphe obsoleta? I have a friend who also keeps reptiles who works in a lab. We got into a discussion about some of these new theory's that are destined to change taxonomy as we know it. He told me you can pretty much make lab results say what ever you want them to say. In fact he mentioned that there are people out there that are just doing alot of hair splitting trying to make a name for themselves to get their names in print. Look at how Jerry Walls has for instance separated the eastern fox snake from the western making each their own full species based on nothing more than their ranges not meeting. The same with the Louisiana pine in relation to other pituophis. There are EIGHT different disjunct populations of northern pinesnakes. Does that mean that there are eight completly different species of northern pine, making only one of them pituophis melanoleucus?Think about it. Anyway back to gutatta. We all have read the variations between e.g.gutatta and e.g.emoryi, but how about you guys who keep emorys (and,or)Texas corns and doing your own scale counts from skin sheds then comparing notes. I remember reading in a field guide that the ventral count in Texas ratsnakes was something like 218 to 237 with grey rats being about 231 to 257. I have had many of both over the years and did some scale counts of my own finding the Texas rats to be at the high end of their range and the greys to be at the low end of their's, making the counts of both being simalar. Anyway that is my .002 cents, nothing more. I would like to hear some of your thoughts. I am here to learn just like the rest of you.
Take care and God bless, Alan

Follow Ups:

Re: Intergrade (LONG) robc 03/20/02 (3)
- Re: Intergrade (LONG) Alan Garry 03/21/02 (2)
  - Alan could you E-mail me? robc 03/21/02 (1)
    - Re: Yes, but give me a couple of days- - - Alan Garry 03/21/02 (0)

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: I'm no geneticist, but saying the East Texas gutatta's are cornsnakes rather than emoryi seems to be going in the complete opposite direction from the clade theory that is being assigned to the obsoleta complex. The exact same Mississippi river that separates the true red blotched corns from all other populations is also the greatest barrier that separates the western clade from the other two clades in elaphe obsoleta. So does this mean cornsnakes freely cross wide rivers, while it almost never happens with elaphe obsoleta? I have a friend who also keeps reptiles who works in a lab. We got into a discussion about some of these new theory's that are destined to change taxonomy as we know it. He told me you can pretty much make lab results say what ever you want them to say. In fact he mentioned that there are people out there that are just doing alot of hair splitting trying to make a name for themselves to get their names in print. Look at how Jerry Walls has for instance separated the eastern fox snake from the western making each their own full species based on nothing more than their ranges not meeting. The same with the Louisiana pine in relation to other pituophis. There are EIGHT different disjunct populations of northern pinesnakes. Does that mean that there are eight completly different species of northern pine, making only one of them pituophis melanoleucus?Think about it. Anyway back to gutatta. We all have read the variations between e.g.gutatta and e.g.emoryi, but how about you guys who keep emorys (and,or)Texas corns and doing your own scale counts from skin sheds then comparing notes. I remember reading in a field guide that the ventral count in Texas ratsnakes was something like 218 to 237 with grey rats being about 231 to 257. I have had many of both over the years and did some scale counts of my own finding the Texas rats to be at the high end of their range and the greys to be at the low end of their's, making the counts of both being simalar. Anyway that is my .002 cents, nothing more. I would like to hear some of your thoughts. I am here to learn just like the rest of you. : Take care and God bless, Alan

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