Re: Intergrade (LONG)

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Posted by Alan Garry on March 21, 2002 at 16:02:50:

In Reply to: Re: Intergrade (LONG) posted by robc on March 20, 2002 at 15:51:53:

: First off I get you do not agree with the assessment that Elaphe gutatta west of the mississippi and ifact gutatta gutatta.

I dont necessarily disagree with pure gutatta being found west of Mississippi or even Texas for that matter, nor do I necessarily agree with the Mississippi being a formidable barrier. I was mostly pointing out that these great minds in herpatology are going in very different directions in their theories. Also as far as corns being found on the Keys rather than the mainland, have DNA studies been done on these snakes and compared to their counterparts on the mainland?

: Anyway I think you bring up some valide points. Like you I question much of what Taxonomist tell us, based on your exact point, that many are out to make a name for themselves. Just to let you know I believe alot of this resaerch is being headed up by DR. James Dixon, who definatly has no need to make a name for himself. Not saying he can't be wrong, just not out to make a name for himself.

As for Dixon I agree with him not needing to make a name for himself. I have his Texas snakes book. As far as what he says about Texas corns, I dont feel he really gave me any thing to chew on. He doesn't give us any info on DNA findings. He talks about blotch counts however and I have to tell you that is subject to alot more variation than I have read about in any text book. I collected a consnake in North Carolina that had 46 body blotches, which is a greater amount than 90% of emoryi I have examined.

: Now On to some of your other points, No way on earth is the Mississippi River an effective barrier.

That is simply what the paper said. I too question that. One thing they said was that DNA findings were different on both sides of the Mississippi, concerning elaphe obsoleta.

Corn Snakes are on Marathon key,Key west, Ceder Key, and just about every other Island off the coast of Florida. Not only that several other subspecies of snakes come to mind that cross the Mississippi.

: I would love to read more about the break up of the obselatas, as I have only heard about it in passing. If you have it or can tell me where I might find it, I could be a little more informed to discuss it.

: If you look at the habitat of east texas it is definatly more in line with type habitat of Corns as opposed to emoryi.

In Texas there several snakes that span several environments. Eastern hognoses are found a good 100 miles into the more arid type of environment, and Texas ratsnakes a good 200 miles into it. Both primarily forest animals.

: Pattern is identical to corn as opposed to emoryi. And yes I do scale count, and blotch count.

: Body shaped is more like Corns. And yes I lived in Westren Tx groing up and lived in FL for 4 years and have seen my share of both.

: Now here is the reason I do not beieve they are intergrades. All of the speciemens are close to identical. In most zones of intergradiation you can get animals that lean one way or the other. In this area we get quite a few. For Example take a look at the field collection forum, I posted two ribbons that were found under the exact same piece of A/C. One is typical rubralinatus one is typical proximus. There is NO variation that I have seen. Granted this comes from a small sample of about 30 animals I have personally found from two seperate locals.

I do believe in genetics and put my faith in that answering these questions. I always look forward to discussing these types of things.

I also believe in genetics but I also question what we are being told

: P.S If you look closely there is a fair amount of orange on both the bellies and flanks of these animals.

I caught a few of these snakes in eastern Feyette county Texas which falls within this range, and they didn't look that different from emoryi that I caught in Travis county. Just the blotches were a little more deeply colored. They had the more squarish snout of an emoryi. A friend showed me his pair of Kisatchi corns. They looked like emoryi with dark blotches, no orange. The pattern did however look more like that of a cornsnake. My findings too are only based on a few snakes, and I am certainly no biologist.
My main ojective was to get others on this forum to question what is out their, especially all of these new changes that keep popping up.
Robc, I realize my first post was right behind yours, but I meant it for the whole forum.
Anyway I'll get you that information on the mitochondrial DNA of elaphe obsoleta.
Anyway keep sharing,
Later, Alan,

Follow Ups:

Alan could you E-mail me? robc 03/21/02 (1)
- Re: Yes, but give me a couple of days- - - Alan Garry 03/21/02 (0)

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: : First off I get you do not agree with the assessment that Elaphe gutatta west of the mississippi and ifact gutatta gutatta. : : I dont necessarily disagree with pure gutatta being found west of Mississippi or even Texas for that matter, nor do I necessarily agree with the Mississippi being a formidable barrier. I was mostly pointing out that these great minds in herpatology are going in very different directions in their theories. Also as far as corns being found on the Keys rather than the mainland, have DNA studies been done on these snakes and compared to their counterparts on the mainland? : : : Anyway I think you bring up some valide points. Like you I question much of what Taxonomist tell us, based on your exact point, that many are out to make a name for themselves. Just to let you know I believe alot of this resaerch is being headed up by DR. James Dixon, who definatly has no need to make a name for himself. Not saying he can't be wrong, just not out to make a name for himself. : : As for Dixon I agree with him not needing to make a name for himself. I have his Texas snakes book. As far as what he says about Texas corns, I dont feel he really gave me any thing to chew on. He doesn't give us any info on DNA findings. He talks about blotch counts however and I have to tell you that is subject to alot more variation than I have read about in any text book. I collected a consnake in North Carolina that had 46 body blotches, which is a greater amount than 90% of emoryi I have examined. : : Now On to some of your other points, No way on earth is the Mississippi River an effective barrier. : That is simply what the paper said. I too question that. One thing they said was that DNA findings were different on both sides of the Mississippi, concerning elaphe obsoleta. : Corn Snakes are on Marathon key,Key west, Ceder Key, and just about every other Island off the coast of Florida. Not only that several other subspecies of snakes come to mind that cross the Mississippi. : : I would love to read more about the break up of the obselatas, as I have only heard about it in passing. If you have it or can tell me where I might find it, I could be a little more informed to discuss it. : : If you look at the habitat of east texas it is definatly more in line with type habitat of Corns as opposed to emoryi. : In Texas there several snakes that span several environments. Eastern hognoses are found a good 100 miles into the more arid type of environment, and Texas ratsnakes a good 200 miles into it. Both primarily forest animals. : : Pattern is identical to corn as opposed to emoryi. And yes I do scale count, and blotch count. : : Body shaped is more like Corns. And yes I lived in Westren Tx groing up and lived in FL for 4 years and have seen my share of both. : : Now here is the reason I do not beieve they are intergrades. All of the speciemens are close to identical. In most zones of intergradiation you can get animals that lean one way or the other. In this area we get quite a few. For Example take a look at the field collection forum, I posted two ribbons that were found under the exact same piece of A/C. One is typical rubralinatus one is typical proximus. There is NO variation that I have seen. Granted this comes from a small sample of about 30 animals I have personally found from two seperate locals. : I do believe in genetics and put my faith in that answering these questions. I always look forward to discussing these types of things. : : I also believe in genetics but I also question what we are being told : : P.S If you look closely there is a fair amount of orange on both the bellies and flanks of these animals. : I caught a few of these snakes in eastern Feyette county Texas which falls within this range, and they didn't look that different from emoryi that I caught in Travis county. Just the blotches were a little more deeply colored. They had the more squarish snout of an emoryi. A friend showed me his pair of Kisatchi corns. They looked like emoryi with dark blotches, no orange. The pattern did however look more like that of a cornsnake. My findings too are only based on a few snakes, and I am certainly no biologist. : My main ojective was to get others on this forum to question what is out their, especially all of these new changes that keep popping up. : Robc, I realize my first post was right behind yours, but I meant it for the whole forum. : Anyway I'll get you that information on the mitochondrial DNA of elaphe obsoleta. : Anyway keep sharing, : Later, Alan,

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