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Posted by Ric Blair on November 11, 1998 at 01:11:22:
In Reply to: Re: Very Serious Flaws With Proposed Guidelines posted by Dave Beamer on November 10, 1998 at 21:19:58:
: How can a population once described as a sympatric subspecies have it's own evoltionary fate when there is gene flow between it and other populations. If kingsnakes in CA do go extinct this affects the kingsnakes on the east coast as the total range of the species is greatly reduced. In addition herpetoculture can not save kingsnakes. This is like saying farmers have saved cows, a cow can hardly be celebrated as preservation. The same goes for dogs, cats, goldfish ect. all of these have not been subjected to natural selection and therefore have not contributed to preserving the species in even a small way. I would suggest that if kingsnake populations in CA where in danger of extinction that kingsnakes in CA be protected. They obviously wouldn't require federal protection as they are secure over many thousands of square miles otherwise. I fail to see how it is as important know how to reproduce subocs in captivity, I do not claim that nothing useful can be learned from captive herps but reproduction under captive conditions is not very informative as to how they reproduce in the wild. Hobbyiest can definately make important contributions and they have already done so. I encourage them to keep up the good work but I can not support their work if it damages populations.
: Dave Beamer
Dave,
So when all the snakes in wild have been overbuilt into a small and rare population. You feel that these animals should now be labeled for protection because of poor wildlife management. And now restrictions should be put on all captive bred animals. I disagree. We cannot do anything to stop the dwindling populations of the indigo snake. But at the same time you should not stop the breeders from breeding and enjoying the hobbie's and passions. I am just into what I do as much as you are. He did not say we are saving the kingsnake, but at least there would still be some around to show are kids what used to be in the wild. And tell about how the wild populations were protected into extinction. And you know what, we have no control over the demise of these beautiful animals in the wild. So let us have our hobbie. You keep tring to get the animals protected, and not let anyone own one at all. I know you don't care if we have one after they all disapear, but I do. I see they are breeding lions in zoo's and trying to spread out the gene pool. If they are all killed in the wild, then I guess according to you, that the animals in captivity are not worth having around. Your interest in herps is much different then mine. I will keep breeding, and I will keep watching the habitat wither away. You can't stop the eradication and you cannot stop me from raising my animals. So what is the big deal here. Sounds like someone trying to flaunt their knowledge, when it wont make a difference what you know in the long run, as far as the animals are concerned. Again in 99% of the cases herpers are not the proplem. You need to address the States as to what is happening, not us. You are barking up the wrong tree. You are wasting your Knowledge on us. We already know what the real problems are. They are not us. I don't care what your ideas are on speciation, they seem very arbitrary to what we are doing. All your knowledge is going to waste here. Direct it where it needs to be directed. As an example. All of the animals that were destroyed in one canyon here, could have supplied all the herpers in the world with breeders and progeny. Not much was done about this. Is it not interesting that from the very small number of knoblochi that came out of Mexico are now thousands. From a conservation point of view, I doubt many people will make the trip to Mexico to find one. On the other hand if all the habitat was destroyed there, we could not have done anything. Again we have our animals, sure we wanted them to make it in the wild, but don't tell me my snake has nothing to to with conservation. I think we already know that. You keep brinbing this up. I promise Dave that we already know it. I think the comment by I believe it was RP or Kwam that is we have thousands in our hands. He said nothing about replanting them back. He just said that we the people that adore them, have them. Yes they are biologically dead. But we did not destroy the wild ones to begin with. You do biology and we will do our thing. You keep trying to mix the two into the law part of this forum. If the lake gumby garter snake is rare in one corner of the State, then protect that area from collection period. I doubt that many people will want to own one anyway.
