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Posted by Ric Blair on November 11, 1998 at 11:45:42:
In Reply to: Re: Very Serious Flaws With Proposed Guidelines posted by Dave Beamer on November 11, 1998 at 10:48:59:
: Not all herp populations will perish from the face of the earth. While every year more habitat is destroyed more land is also set aside as preserves. If you would change your attitude and stop just watching habitat getting destroyed you could make a difference. Sure habitat will still be destroyed and you can't stop that but you can at least help with the preservation of some lands that will help herps persist. You have a very selfish point of view. All the snakes in that canyon could have went to chinese food markets or to provide tissue samples for genetic work. It was not just a loss to your group. If you start to look at other ways to interact with herps besides just in captivity you may see things in a different light. You can try to wash your hands of these issues as much as you want. The herp trade does damage populations and the state will seek ways to stop these stresses on populations that are already taxed with habitat destruction. Just because it is a small part of the problem doesn't mean it doesn't need to be addressed.
: Dave Beamer
Dave,
I appreciate your responses to my posts. Maybe I am putting my needs first. But they are not unrealistic as far as I am concerned. When I go into the areas to locate the Utah pyro's I ask the local people if they have ever seen any of the snakes in question (pyro's). In one canyon alone I have tallied alone about 75 deaths attributed to the locals. They kill everyone they see. I do not want to kill the ones I see, nor do I want to collect them all. I have educated the people that were killing the snakes, and hopefully have done some good. The problem is that I have about 25 to 30 years to live. I do not need the snakes for the money. But, rather I feel I have as much right to keep a few as the people feel they have a right to kill them all. I think my way is much more noble. But I have a feeling you would not care, because they are still dead in your opinion. Needless to say there are still people that will want them, and no matter how you feel you cannot stop people from having them. So it is better to be reasonable then prohibitive. I will never live long enough to see the State expend the money necessary to do a proper evaluation. Mammals are of greater concern. So if the State feels no need in doing the work, then they obviously don't care much about the animal either. They say they want them here for future generations to enjoy. You know what, as far as I am concerned the only future generations that truly enjoy the animals are people like me. The average person could care less. I understand where you are coming from. But until you can show me different, then I should not be allowed to keep something within reason. I would lean toward conservation, but using common sense. As an instance the Utah pyro is a kingsnake. Very prolific. They have between 4 to 6 offspring. the area they are in consists of massive rock slides, with abundant food sources. I would venture to guess that these animals are very abundant. The garter snakes in some of these areas lay out in the roads en mass. As many animals that are collected in Arizona has not seemed to slow down the numbers still being found. It is much easier to flip them in Arizona. Until you get to nortern Arizona where the slides are proportionate to the huge Utah slides. Almost impossible to flip for them. So you say you cannot stop the killing, you cannot stop the habitat destruction (which are both more devastating than what we are asking) but you want to pick on the guys that want to keep them. Again it sounds very unfair, and it sounds like you are chewing on the wrong end of the sucker. If there is such great concern for these animals, why are there not signs posted at the entrances to the canyons where they are located telling people not to kill the snakes, and that it is also illegal. They post signs to keep motorvehicles out. It will never happen because to be quite honest know one cares, but the herpers. Again all we want is a small piece of the pie, and a very small one at that. And in my opinion the the most sensible piece. For the record I do not collect any of them as they are protected here, and have been restricted from collection, illegally. The law was passed without regard to Utah codes, which prohibit restriction, without documentation. So in essence the people that really hate the snakes (but act otherwise) need not do the work or research if they can just prohibit them. It is taken care of without lifting a finger, and with absolutely nothing to back the reasoning for prohibtion. It seems like any law that is written has to be studied and analized and researched before it can become law.
