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Posted by arguement for Dave on November 15, 1998 at 22:47:59:
In Reply to: Re: The Need for Subspecies posted by Dave Beamer on November 11, 1998 at 19:12:45:
Here is something to think about: painted turtles>
Eastern, Western, Southern, Midland: all subspecies.
"you cannot identify a subspecies by looking at it"
Give me a hundred Chrysemys picta from Reelfoot Lake Tennessee, a hundred Chrysemys picta from Northern Minnesota, 100 Chrysemys picta from Eastern Indiana and 100 Chrysemys picta from Eastern North Carolina and mix them up real good. I'll bet a thousand dollars that I can properly place the picta, marginata, dorsalis and belli(subspecies) correctly on each turtle.
Result: identified subspecies.
I thought I made it clear that I believe species should be listed at a species level. If exceptions are made for well defined color morphs such is done with artificial color morphs like albinos i have no problems. Traditional use of subspecies has nothing to do with science. If you would take the time to read the refs I cited you would realize that while it is hard to get rid of "tradition" it is definately being undertaken. Perhaps a good question for those posting on this forum would be what is a subspecies? I would encourage states not to prepare lists with subspecies. Indiana did not include subspecies and there was an outcry that lead to there inclusion in the guidelines. In states that do insist on using this outdated taxonomy I have no problem with the guidelines allowing for that. However I do not want to see all states that are using modern progressive taxonomy be dragged down because hobbyiest believe they should recognize clinal variation as a taxonomic unit.
: Dave Beamer
