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Posted by Rob Carmichael on May 14, 2003 at 08:37:14:
In Reply to: Tired of it, so start swinging posted by jared w on May 12, 2003 at 16:31:02:
I don't necessarily disagree with your rant (with some of your points as they are well taken), however, I have some questions:
1) You say "Don't force wild animals to play by your rules"...well, when we put a snake in captivity against its will isn't that forcing them to play by our rules? We force them to accept a certain "unnatural" diet. We force them to: live in cages which may not have the proper heat, don't allow for opportunities to cover large tracts of habitat, may not have proper humidity levels, lack of suitable dens, improper basking sites, opportunities in finding a mate, feeling wider temperature variations, feeling rain, heck, even feeling fear from other predators, etc. The bashing I have seen throughout the years on this forum dealing with the venomoid issue shows how volatile it is but it also shows how reasoning sorely lacks on this forum. When I hear about death threats towards those who have differing opinions shows me just how messed up some of these people are.
2) There isn't any evidence to support people's claims that a properly performed "venomoid" procedure puts the snake at harm's way. In fact, some of our oldest snakes in our collection are venomoids and they are the picture of perfect health. The person who performed this procedure (whoever it was, we obtained these animals as a result of confiscations and did NOT initiate it ourselves) did a superb job with no noticeable scarring, etc. These animals feed exceptionally well, defecate well, are active, alert but at the same time very placid animals....this leads to my own RANT...
2) I hear all of these people bashing those who support the procedure, HOWEVER, most if not ALL of these very same people keep venomous herps WITHOUT keeping the required antivenin for each of the species that they keep? Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical? Personally, if I lived next to someone who kept cobras, without keeping a supply of antivenin, irregardless of their level of experience and expertise, I would have a REAL problem with that (even though I keep venomous herps at my wildlife center with the proper security systems in place). How can this be any better than the procedure? It isn't! So we should just assume that the hospitals will keep the necessary supply or that the zoos and wildlife centers like our's who do keep antivenin should gut their own supplies just for the sake of an irresponsible owner? We should just assume that in the unlikely event that one of our venomous snakes gets loose and tags someone outside, that it's someone else's problem to find antivenin? Once again, seems hypocritical to me.
Now, I have to admit that I am still not in full favor in one way or another. In some cases, having a "venomoid" may be a better alternative if the snake is being kept for the proper reasons (education, display, etc.). If these snakes are undergoing this procedure just so that some idiot can take his king cobra to the park and show off how cool h/she is, then that is just plain wrong. But, we cannot control idiots. Sure, it would be great to see this procedure done only by licensed veterinarians and perhaps that is the best alternative (and as someone said, unlikely to happen because very few vets will do this procedure). But, in my opinion (worth only .02), it seems that if you don't keep the required antivenin on hand, you shouldn't own a venomous snake and that, to me, is just as bad as an improperly peformed procedure (and I am the LAST person on earth that would want to see any harm done to a snake). If someone can give me a reason why they should be allowed to keep a venomous snake without keeping the required antivenin then I would love to hear it.
Thanks for hearing my rant,
Rob Carmichael, Director of the Wildlife Discovery Center - City of Lake Forest
:Ok, I do have a rant, I said I wouldnt do It but I will> I have serious issues with venomoid animals and here goes.
:I would Like to see all venomoiders surgical Licenses, and the vet schools they attended
:I Would also like to know, out of curiousity, how many of those venomoid keepers routinely see these animals at shows, and they dont look like there heads have been pulled apart.
:Where do these operations occur, does anyone have photos of your surgical set ups, are they sterile, is everything rocaled on a daily basis? Personally I have assisted 400+ surgeries, ranging from HBC, spays, neuters, and DECLAWS etc etc
:The animals are devalued as people pick them up like cornsnakes and even let them get bit?!?!
:In my eyes, its the keepers problem, they obviously have an issue and are either afraid (in which case you should reconsider what your doing) of the animal or do not understand the individuals behavior. And instead of taking some time and learing more about it, they choose the easy road and cripple the animal.
:Venom aids in digestion, and yes they can be digested without, but why would nature give it to the animal in the first place?
:I Have never seen a venomoid that couldnt easily be pointed out, the surgeries are sloppy, and anyone can see that.
:I dont agree with declaws, canine pulling, venomoids, etc. If you are not confident in your private, tech, or vetrinary capabilities you should not punish animals based on your lack of ability. Big cats, are SUPPOSED TO HAVE CANINES, SO ARE WOLVES, BEARS, And Baboons. It REALLY reflects on the keeper if they feel it necessary to preform such barbaric actions. Also, most vets (as stated, some arent very good, and need money anyway) will not do these surgeries for various reasons. Personally, I would hope they have better ethics. WHAT alot of people dont understand is, THESE ANIMALS ARE NOT PETS< get a dog or cat if you need a companion, my animals are all specimens, that I observe monitor and record spending routinely 6hrs a day working with herps. This isnt a game, dont try to force WILD ANIMALS to play by your rules, jesus am I the only one here who has seen jurassic park LOL! Nature has reprocussions, and the first time part of a gland is missed, it regenerates, and some no nothing lets his now hot cobra chew on his arm the s@ will hit the fan. I dont think this is based on personal preference, I mean, are roundups based on preference? They all consider themselves to be herpetologist? Its one thing to work with animals that you love (trust me, I dont do this for the money) its another to cripple them to increase standard market value. I Know I will get bashed, but thats ok, I dont need to give you my experience, etc etc as its not necessary. I know most of the people on this forum, and I understand as long as snakes are considered nuisance animals you can do whatever ya like to um, but personally it does not represent well on the keeper. My 0.02 on this pathetic subject,