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Posted by Bosse on January 18, 2001 at 15:45:18:
In Reply to: Re: My opinion....and Travis.... posted by travis on January 16, 2001 at 23:10:38:
I didn't expect to have this criticism, but since I did I guess I need to clarify some things!
First of all I want you to know that MK is NOT one of my idols, as if I EVER gave that impression! Saying that is really a way of telling everybody that you read what you WANT to read and NOT what it says. I even made it clear that she might not take the collective objectives that we can meet her with, but hey, at least she gets a chance. She wasn't even the only one that were on Joes mind!!
Another thing, you are ABSOLUTELY right that there are no longterm studies made that PROVES what the right diet is. This is of course impossible to do, since every individual will be different from the other and we can only calculate and guess and come up with a diet that is reasonably close enough. If you are going to wait for proof, then you are in for a long waiting!!! You have to be reasonable here ( which I don't consider you to be right now ) and look at what we DO know, almost to a fact and that is the lack of the enzymes needed to properly break down animal protein. A quote from The Green Iguana Society which I think gives an idea on animal protein ( don't answer this with " who says this is right " since it WOULD really make you unreasonable, since it's really valid words!! ):
"Is there a “safe” amount of animal protein I can give my iguana? Probably.
The problem is that, at this time, nobody knows what that magical “safe” level is. Giving your
iguana the very occasional bite of your cheese sandwich or letting it share your cottage cheese as a
treat probably isn’t going to hurt it – just as it’s not a big deal when you and I occasionally eat a
Big Mac and a vanilla shake. It only becomes a problem when we eat junk food four times a
week. The question, however, is this: Since we don’t know what the safe level of animal protein is
for our iguanas, should we risk it? Do we really want to risk our iguanas’ health by trying to walk
up to that borderline between “okay” and “too much”, without crossing it? Can we hope to do
that, if we don’t even know where that borderline is?"
We can also see, and since you have been dealing with so many animals and over so many years you must have too, that the animals we care for today live a lot longer and in better health with the new " theories" then the old ones. I ( and many that I know with me ) have seen the results of these malnurished and wrongly kept animals. Everytime we meet them we can see that there has been the same mistakes that have been made over and over again, i.e animal protein, absence of UV light, little diet variety and dry habitat as being the most common ones. They are not animals kept in good micro climates, given a variety of so called "good" vegetables and fruit, given UV light and right temperature! This gives ME GOOD indications that the "theories" are good theories and at least I will follow them. Following advices like " give them crickets", "have them loose in your home ( with sometimes perhaps 25 - 30 % rel humidity )", " give them iguana pellets as a staple diet" and so on, is in my book the same as playing russian roulette with your iguanas life! I'm not saying that we KNOW what is right or wrong, but we DO have good indications that we are on the right track, since the animals today are doing much better than they were before.
You said that we can't agree...in a way you are right and in another you are dead wrong. It is diagreeing that makes us go forward. We start discussions and try to come up with good ideas on a sollution, sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad, but it brings us forward! Criticism is good when it's constructive but can also be destructive. BUT, you are dead wrong with this particular matter. I can assure you that the vets and zoo people that are really in on this all agree. Of course there are some vets that can't accept that they have no knowledge and still go out with what is most widely considered "wrong " info, but the majority are agreeing on the animal protein matter and more. You said that you don't say that anything is a fact without seeing it yourself, but here I can promise that you made just that mistake ( sure there will be minor differences, but only that ). If you have this opinion on us then you are still back in early 90's, since the zoo community is working very differently now, with a lot of international cooperation. We attend the same conferences, switch ideas and learn from eachothers, so try not to be too disrespectful. I never disrespected you, i was just concerned over the statement!
Regarding dry food.....again, of course I can't PROVE anything, but the INDICATIONS are leaning quite clearly towards dangerous. Let's take an example: Some of them claim that they contains everything a Green Iguana needs.......doesn't that strike you as strange, considering what you just said yourself, that NO studies are made that tells us what the right diet is!! HOW is it possible to make a product that contains what we dont know!!?? No one could ever convince me that a pelleted diet can even replace a well balanced VARIETY of food ( whichever animal it is!! ). Even on dogs they STILL ( in spite of your "MULTI GENERATION" studies ) find problems caused by pelleted diets. Another thing...I don't know how it is over there, but around 90 % of the deaths here are due to kidney failure, many times caused by longterm dehydration. Iguanas are not smart enough to drink the proper amount of water to these pelleted diets and this doesn't help the situation. Also, a lot of the commercial foods have proven time after time to contain products they are not supposed to contain.
You talked about El Salvador, but nothing about what you DID see them eat or what the people you where with had to say.
That's all for now. This became so long so that i haven't a clue on what I started with, but I hope it comes out OK :-)
Bosse
