Re: One last post for me about breeding iguanas

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Posted by filthy on August 12, 1999 at 06:14:03:

In Reply to: One last post for me about breeding iguanas posted by TL on August 10, 1999 at 22:32:10:

: I'm going to carefully approach this as this seems to be a very volatile topic.And It is my intention not to offend anyone nor is this meant as a personal attack.

: Many years ago burmese pythons were imported in great numbers.I got see this first hand because back then I was working in a pet shop.This was about 15 years ago.Burmese came in by the thousands to the wholesalers.Covered in ticks,mites and loaded with parasites.They were starved and dehydrated.They were also vicous and reluctant to feed.Many of them died,either on the way here or in the wholesalers cages.Those that did survive made it to the pet shops.Where more died.The lucky few were then bought by customers.Customers who wound up with an animal that had one foot in the grave already.An animal that didnt want to feed,was aggresive,had ticks and other problems.So the budding young snake keeper was quite upset.Try as he might he just couldnt do anything with this animal.So what happened?Maybe he took it to the vet but more likely he tried to return it to the shop where he bought it ot tried to pawn it off on a friend.Im talking about a novice here,not an expert.And this is pertitent since its the novices that people are worried about.

: So time goes on.People begin to breed burmese.Other people call them stupid.Why breed an animal that you can buy so cheaply from an importer ot wholesaler?But they did.And they stumbled along the way but eventually some determined people got it down to a science.Captive bred burms started to become available.Slowly but surely,people began to notice the difference.The CB bred animals usually ate with little problems.They didnt have ticks,mites or other nasty things.They were beautiful animals,unscarred and undamaged.For the most part,they were easier to "tame" as well.It took some time,but soon even the wholesalers and jobbers were buying from breeders.And more people started breeding.Until here we are today,and I would have difficultly finding a wild caught baby burmese even I wanted one.If they are even still being imported.

: So what happens to our friend who just wants to buy a healthy baby python?Well now he walks into the store and is able to purchase a healthy,feeding python.He can usually even find out when it was born and where it was born.Or he can buy directly from a breeder.His chances of having success with this animal is greatly improved.He is less likely to become frustrated and give up or try to dump it on someone.

: The same thing can be said for many species of snakes and some lizards.Captive bred has become the norm,not the exception.

: Now lets look at the igaunas.Iguanas are not being bred with any frequency by private breeders.I know a LOT of reptile people in my 20 or so years of keeping herps and I dont know anyone who breeds and hatches iguanas on a regular basis.I know a single person who has hatched a clutch successfully.Yet,as you all say,there are thousands of iguanas that need homes.So obviously the lack of captive breeding is not helping the situation.Thousands upon thousands are imported all the time.

: Id like to side track this for a second.Several people have painted a rather dismal picture of iguana owners.Folks,there are plenty of caring people out there who take good care of their animals.Ive personally waited on god knows how many people who walked in and bought hundreds of dollars of euipment,vitamins,books and then plopped down their $9.99 for the iguana.And yes I have waited on creeps too.But I have also waited on creeps who bought every other animal in the store.I could usually break down the creeps though and even they would cave.Yes I realize that a lot of pet shops have uninterested salespeople who will just stick an animal in a bag and hand it toy ou without a word.And a lot of salespeople who dont.But thats another story.

: So anyway,we have the iguanas are being imported.A lot of people like to say "farm raised" which is really just a fancy phrase for "wild caught".The animals are shipped from places in SA.They go for extended periods without food or water during their first few weeks of life.They wind up at a jobbers or wholesalers in a huge room full of other wild caught animals from all over the world.And eventually,they wind up in the pet shop like our buddy the burmese python.And the same thing happens.Thousands die.And those that live are hanging by a thread,particularly the older iguanas who adapt even more worse then the babies.So the novice buys an iguana and blah blah blah the same thing happens.Now if that animal had been bred,maybe right in that buyers home state,chances are he would have a much happier,much healthier animal on his hands.An animal that could better handle a blunder by a well meaning but as of yet uneducated caretaker.An animal that would be alert,lively and feeding well.A joy to be have and a joy to be around.An animal that the ownder would not be so quick to part with if he got too big.Yes of course there will be some CB animals that are nasty,sickly,dont feed well etc.But significatly less then the wild caught ones.

: And that is why I am for captive breeding of these animals.Lets face it,a lot of people like baby iguanas.They like to raise them.Not everyone wants to adopt an older,injured or sickly iguana.The same way a lot of people just dont want to adopt an old,mean,beat up dog.Its just a fact.People are going to continue to buy baby iguanas no matter where they come from.I would rather see them with a CB animal then a WC one that even a vet would have a hard time saving.And maybe,years down the road,if enough people are breeding,just maybe...the massive destruction of imported animals can be stopped,or at the very least slowed down.

: People wont get into iguana breeding becasue they want to get rich.They will get into it becasue they love the animals.The same reason the original snake breeders got into it.

: A few people have made the statement "When every iguana in the world who needs a home is adopted then we can start breeding".I respect the sentiment but its just not a realistic reason not to breed igauans.For that matter,lets not breed anything until all the dogs,cats,goldfish,parrots and what the hell..people all have homes.And who decides who gets to have an iguana?You?Me?

: Couple this with the fact that the average person has no idea where to go to adopt an iguana even if he wanted to.Thats why Im for education,rather then destruction of eggs or denial of breeding.Ill tell you this..those little books by AVS(The care and maintanence of fill in the blank) have done wonders for the hobby.Oops..I said hobby..I meant pet owners.But hey lets face it..if you have 1 iguana its a pet..if you have 50 leopard geckos then you got yourself a hobby!Anyway,those little books have put the much needed information into the hands of folks who really wanted to learn and didnt know where else to go.I dont think most people mistreat reptiles out of mean spiritedness,just ignorance.If the information is available,most folks with utilize it.The care sheets on the net are also a boon to the novice.Everyone in my area who keeps reptiles pretty much knows who I am.Ive been at it a while.They also know that they can call me not only to buy an animal but to ask me any question they like.About any animal that I might be able to help them with.I dont own a burmese python,but I answer burmese questions all day.I dont sell iguanas for that matter,but at least once a day I get a phone call or an email and I help when I can.The same way I try to do on these forums now that I have discovered them.

: So what im saying is,if you choose not to breed your animals,thats your right.If you want to freeze your eggs,thats fine.But dont tell me I cant breed mine.And believe me I will find homes for them.And god willing those homes will be good ones.But I would not deprive a person the ownership of any animal based on the fact that other people have abused that animal in the past.Otherwise,no one should be allowed to own anything until they were investigated by a group of people who have appointed themselves Lord of the Apes..of the lizard or what have you.

: I understand you folks are passionate about your iguanas.Thats fine.But maybe we are looking at it from a differnt perspective.I have been to wholesalers and jobbers and have seen the horror of imported animals.And not just iguanas,not just reptiles for that matter.Importation laws may be the answer.Education may be the answer.If you really want to go out on a limb,maybe a law similar to the baby turtle may be an answer.I just dont believe that a halt to all captive breeding of iguanas is an answer.
:

: I dont expect one single person to agree with me as it appears everyone knows each other and follows the same manner of thinking.And yes I do find it to be a bit extremist if you want to know the truth.But thats of little consequence.I hope I have at least presented my perspective in a rational,non insulting manner.I dont believe in hostility when discussing an issue such as this.

: Thank you.
:

Hi TL,

Very good. A strong Iguana, CB market would benefit both the breeder and the public as well. Unfortunatly, we are currently buried in Igs. I am an Iguana keeper by accident, keeping mostly hot snakes, a field that has some of what you discribe, but not so much. You can get a CB of almost any species you might want (if you're willing to wait) and the people who keep them know the difference.

I like the way you think.

filthy

Follow Ups:

Just love how people twist things out of text.........reminds me of...... Harry's Dad 8/12/99 (5)
- Re: Just love how people twist things out of text.........reminds me of...... TL 8/12/99 (2)
  - TL you make me laugh..........in a hummmmm kinda good way.....I think... Harry's Dad 8/12/99 (1)
    - Glad you find it funny.I think you're a laugh riot as well. TL 8/12/99 (0)
- Re: Think igs are the only ones priced too damn low? Ever see a nile for 20 bucks? I have, at a mall store. Once you reach a point it does not really matter wehter the price drops a couple more bucks. From what I have heard, way back when, pre cites, there where a lot of animals a fraction of what they are today. Including some pretty nsasty one. So, boas may have been, burms are( SALE_ 55 EACH was at a local petstore), retics getting there. It aint just igs. paul 8/12/99 (1)
  - Hey Paul, easy on the title..........there is a comment section! nm Harry's Dad 8/12/99 (0)

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: : I'm going to carefully approach this as this seems to be a very volatile topic.And It is my intention not to offend anyone nor is this meant as a personal attack. : : Many years ago burmese pythons were imported in great numbers.I got see this first hand because back then I was working in a pet shop.This was about 15 years ago.Burmese came in by the thousands to the wholesalers.Covered in ticks,mites and loaded with parasites.They were starved and dehydrated.They were also vicous and reluctant to feed.Many of them died,either on the way here or in the wholesalers cages.Those that did survive made it to the pet shops.Where more died.The lucky few were then bought by customers.Customers who wound up with an animal that had one foot in the grave already.An animal that didnt want to feed,was aggresive,had ticks and other problems.So the budding young snake keeper was quite upset.Try as he might he just couldnt do anything with this animal.So what happened?Maybe he took it to the vet but more likely he tried to return it to the shop where he bought it ot tried to pawn it off on a friend.Im talking about a novice here,not an expert.And this is pertitent since its the novices that people are worried about. : : So time goes on.People begin to breed burmese.Other people call them stupid.Why breed an animal that you can buy so cheaply from an importer ot wholesaler?But they did.And they stumbled along the way but eventually some determined people got it down to a science.Captive bred burms started to become available.Slowly but surely,people began to notice the difference.The CB bred animals usually ate with little problems.They didnt have ticks,mites or other nasty things.They were beautiful animals,unscarred and undamaged.For the most part,they were easier to "tame" as well.It took some time,but soon even the wholesalers and jobbers were buying from breeders.And more people started breeding.Until here we are today,and I would have difficultly finding a wild caught baby burmese even I wanted one.If they are even still being imported. : : So what happens to our friend who just wants to buy a healthy baby python?Well now he walks into the store and is able to purchase a healthy,feeding python.He can usually even find out when it was born and where it was born.Or he can buy directly from a breeder.His chances of having success with this animal is greatly improved.He is less likely to become frustrated and give up or try to dump it on someone. : : The same thing can be said for many species of snakes and some lizards.Captive bred has become the norm,not the exception. : : Now lets look at the igaunas.Iguanas are not being bred with any frequency by private breeders.I know a LOT of reptile people in my 20 or so years of keeping herps and I dont know anyone who breeds and hatches iguanas on a regular basis.I know a single person who has hatched a clutch successfully.Yet,as you all say,there are thousands of iguanas that need homes.So obviously the lack of captive breeding is not helping the situation.Thousands upon thousands are imported all the time. : : Id like to side track this for a second.Several people have painted a rather dismal picture of iguana owners.Folks,there are plenty of caring people out there who take good care of their animals.Ive personally waited on god knows how many people who walked in and bought hundreds of dollars of euipment,vitamins,books and then plopped down their $9.99 for the iguana.And yes I have waited on creeps too.But I have also waited on creeps who bought every other animal in the store.I could usually break down the creeps though and even they would cave.Yes I realize that a lot of pet shops have uninterested salespeople who will just stick an animal in a bag and hand it toy ou without a word.And a lot of salespeople who dont.But thats another story. : : So anyway,we have the iguanas are being imported.A lot of people like to say "farm raised" which is really just a fancy phrase for "wild caught".The animals are shipped from places in SA.They go for extended periods without food or water during their first few weeks of life.They wind up at a jobbers or wholesalers in a huge room full of other wild caught animals from all over the world.And eventually,they wind up in the pet shop like our buddy the burmese python.And the same thing happens.Thousands die.And those that live are hanging by a thread,particularly the older iguanas who adapt even more worse then the babies.So the novice buys an iguana and blah blah blah the same thing happens.Now if that animal had been bred,maybe right in that buyers home state,chances are he would have a much happier,much healthier animal on his hands.An animal that could better handle a blunder by a well meaning but as of yet uneducated caretaker.An animal that would be alert,lively and feeding well.A joy to be have and a joy to be around.An animal that the ownder would not be so quick to part with if he got too big.Yes of course there will be some CB animals that are nasty,sickly,dont feed well etc.But significatly less then the wild caught ones. : : And that is why I am for captive breeding of these animals.Lets face it,a lot of people like baby iguanas.They like to raise them.Not everyone wants to adopt an older,injured or sickly iguana.The same way a lot of people just dont want to adopt an old,mean,beat up dog.Its just a fact.People are going to continue to buy baby iguanas no matter where they come from.I would rather see them with a CB animal then a WC one that even a vet would have a hard time saving.And maybe,years down the road,if enough people are breeding,just maybe...the massive destruction of imported animals can be stopped,or at the very least slowed down. : : People wont get into iguana breeding becasue they want to get rich.They will get into it becasue they love the animals.The same reason the original snake breeders got into it. : : A few people have made the statement "When every iguana in the world who needs a home is adopted then we can start breeding".I respect the sentiment but its just not a realistic reason not to breed igauans.For that matter,lets not breed anything until all the dogs,cats,goldfish,parrots and what the hell..people all have homes.And who decides who gets to have an iguana?You?Me? : : Couple this with the fact that the average person has no idea where to go to adopt an iguana even if he wanted to.Thats why Im for education,rather then destruction of eggs or denial of breeding.Ill tell you this..those little books by AVS(The care and maintanence of fill in the blank) have done wonders for the hobby.Oops..I said hobby..I meant pet owners.But hey lets face it..if you have 1 iguana its a pet..if you have 50 leopard geckos then you got yourself a hobby!Anyway,those little books have put the much needed information into the hands of folks who really wanted to learn and didnt know where else to go.I dont think most people mistreat reptiles out of mean spiritedness,just ignorance.If the information is available,most folks with utilize it.The care sheets on the net are also a boon to the novice.Everyone in my area who keeps reptiles pretty much knows who I am.Ive been at it a while.They also know that they can call me not only to buy an animal but to ask me any question they like.About any animal that I might be able to help them with.I dont own a burmese python,but I answer burmese questions all day.I dont sell iguanas for that matter,but at least once a day I get a phone call or an email and I help when I can.The same way I try to do on these forums now that I have discovered them. : : So what im saying is,if you choose not to breed your animals,thats your right.If you want to freeze your eggs,thats fine.But dont tell me I cant breed mine.And believe me I will find homes for them.And god willing those homes will be good ones.But I would not deprive a person the ownership of any animal based on the fact that other people have abused that animal in the past.Otherwise,no one should be allowed to own anything until they were investigated by a group of people who have appointed themselves Lord of the Apes..of the lizard or what have you. : : I understand you folks are passionate about your iguanas.Thats fine.But maybe we are looking at it from a differnt perspective.I have been to wholesalers and jobbers and have seen the horror of imported animals.And not just iguanas,not just reptiles for that matter.Importation laws may be the answer.Education may be the answer.If you really want to go out on a limb,maybe a law similar to the baby turtle may be an answer.I just dont believe that a halt to all captive breeding of iguanas is an answer. : : : : I dont expect one single person to agree with me as it appears everyone knows each other and follows the same manner of thinking.And yes I do find it to be a bit extremist if you want to know the truth.But thats of little consequence.I hope I have at least presented my perspective in a rational,non insulting manner.I dont believe in hostility when discussing an issue such as this. : : Thank you. : : : : Hi TL, : Very good. A strong Iguana, CB market would benefit both the breeder and the public as well. Unfortunatly, we are currently buried in Igs. I am an Iguana keeper by accident, keeping mostly hot snakes, a field that has some of what you discribe, but not so much. You can get a CB of almost any species you might want (if you're willing to wait) and the people who keep them know the difference. : I like the way you think. : filthy

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