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Posted by Cable_Hogue on May 08, 2003 at 08:25:27:
In Reply to: Touche' Jeff!! posted by Les4toads on May 07, 2003 at 23:30:49:
::Chuck, your analysis falls way short of anything scientific or logical. What data are you using to conclude the range of the horned lizards you mention is huge? Historical range, to some degree, is large. Actual range is something else. If the horned lizards have uniform distribution in the "huge" range you describe, there would not be an issue of habitat loss. But horned lizards do not have uniform population distribution. The Shorthorned Lizard does not have uniform distribution from below sealevel in Death Valley to 10,000 feet or higher, or on inclines of 45 degree slopes or greater. The Desert Horned Lizard is not found at elevations of 7,000 feet or higher, or in dense forest. Coast Horned Lizards are not found in Sonoran Desert, Mojave Desert or Chihuahuan Desert because their ecological and biological requirements are not met.
*(Cable) I hope you will not take this as a personal attack Lester. It is not meant that way, but you do not back this statement up with relevant information either. If these mitigating factors of dense forest and slope reduce the actual usable range the fact still remains there is substantial usable range in the remaining areas, even though the total range has been reduced. In your studies, have you discovered what percentage of the total usable range remains? What are the population densities in those usable ranges overall? What numbers are needed in those areas to sustain healthy breeding populations? Wouldn't those be the facts that are relevant?
::You compare cat and dogs to reptiles? How do you compare mammals to reptiles? Do you know the numbers of abandoned dogs and cats that are reported every year? How many of these animals are euthanized every year because of irresponsible pet owners? Do you know the damage done by this kind of activity? Feral cats and dogs cause great amounts of damage in "open space" and "protected areas" and wildlife reserves. Find a different argument. Your capitalism and private ownership is not valid.
*(Cable) I think this is a valid argument to make the point he intended to make. Irresponsibility on the part of cat and dog owners does not nullify it, nor the fact that it uses mammals. The point is that humans will maintain a healthy captive population of a desirable animal, even though some will abuse or mistreat them. It is the law and education that will help to insure care and treatment is humane. You aren't suggesting we might have roaming packs of farrel HL's to deal with are you? (joke). :)
::You need to know a lot more about biology and ecology before you can argue a valid issue.
::Lester G. Milroy III
*(Cable) This is arrogant and untrue. More knowledge can lead to better reasoning but just because someone has good facts does not mean they will come to good conclusions and the inverse is also true. Personal talent and ability, political leanings and other agendas all influence our thinking and can lead us to erroneous conclusions.
If we debate, let's debate the truth. Our politics and agendas are not scientific facts; they are what we believe to be true.