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Provoked Response to Lester

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Horned Lizard Forum ]

Posted by Jeff Judd on May 08, 2003 at 00:15:58:

In Reply to: What would really help Horned Lizards. posted by Les4toads on May 07, 2003 at 16:18:59:

Lester, First off thank you for your service to our country. My opinion on conserving horned lizards was not directed toward you (your name wasn't mentioned once), I don't care for your responses (their way off subject) like I said in my e-mail to you, its useless for us to argue back and forth but you continue to do so. Debate is a good thing its american tradition, personal insults should be left for children. I will respond to each of your insults and statements one by one excuse me for being rude but it's easier to answer after your statements.

::Jeff, you are making major assumptions that are not based on any kind of fact. Where is your logical and/or legal argument? Do you have any idea of the legal argument in the Appeals Court concerning the Flattail Horned Lizard issue? I doubt it seriously! The issue that has stopped the listing of the Flattail Horned Lizard is not a scientific issue. The "best available science" has in the past, and continues to support the listing. The political issue is what is in question. There is also the issue of people violating laws that are on the books: 1) illegal collection, 2) habitat destruction by trespass, 3) wildlife management issues (lack of law enforcement, lack of funding, etc).

[For your information I have read all the papers published on the case involving the Flat-tailed horned. What assumptions are you talking about? Why are you telling be about laws being broken that are on the books.]

::If there are folks "playing scientist," Jeff, it is you! I do not see you in the field doing the work. I do not see you providing the "best available science" and providing constructive alternatives or methodology. You plagerize other's work and present it as your own on this forum and that is wrong!

[I never said I was a scientist. I have never seen you in the field doing work. Does this make you not a scientist? I've seen one paper published by you, Does this mean you are providing the best available science? Name the work I have plagerized and presented as my own. Being you are a scientist you should realize scientist base their work on work of previous scientist. At the end of every scientific paper you will see it listed.]

::Your issue of purchasing habitat to protect populations of horned lizards is legitimate. I support that issue, but the habitats are not safe unless law enforcement and wildlife management are in place. The California Condor issue is just one such example. (Some idiot likes to go out and shoot birds with his rifle and kills a protected species, a California Condor. They find him finally and now he has to go through the court system for breaking the law. It just some "damned bird!" If the law is not enforced the way it should be, what next?).

[I never said preserves shouldn't be preserved. They are lands owned by people and organizations to protect the flora and fauna. Trespassers should be prosecuted.
When did I ever say I condoned shooting of animals let alone endangered animals,way off subject.]

::I see "Open Space" and "Protected Areas" violated constantly. Some idiot feels that it is his "right" to ride his dirtbike where ever he wants. So much for "protected areas!"

[Every protected area and preserve I've seen has this thing called a barb wire fence. What you know no dirtbikers.]

::Just what is your background in law, Jeff? From conversations and other communications, you are really selective on what value laws have. I really wonder just why it is you think laws have no value. Are you violating that many yourself? If you want to discuss it, call or email me. I do not want to discuss it here.

[When did I say laws have no value and when did I say I was a lawer? I've told you before I don't break laws, I just want to be aware of them so I don't. Do you like making false accusations? Are you violating laws? You say you keep large numbers of coronatum, a threatend species, I think this is in violation of your scientific permit? I've e-mailed you numerous times to no response.]

::Just what are your credentials, Jeff? Plagerizing and name dropping do not impress me at all.
::Lester G. Milroy III

[When did this become a credentials contest? I have kept 8 species horned lizards, been observing them for at least 10 years, and bred 4 different species. That is all. I keep for enjoyment, facination and personal study. Do you really think that highly of yourself where I would want to impress you? You mean nothing to me.] Jeff

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