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Posted by Les4toads on May 07, 2003 at 16:18:59:
In Reply to: What would really help Horned Lizards. posted by Jeff Judd on May 07, 2003 at 13:11:26:
::It seems fairly obvious to me anyways that Lester has his own agenda. We call it the FUD factor in my line of work. Fear, uncertainty and doubt. Very useful if you want to keep people from some activity. Less, you don't work for the state but you are paid by grants, right? It would be a personal conflict of interest if there were no endangerment issues regarding HL's. I am not saying that these little guys shouldn't be cared for and managed. You just seem to me to go a bit to the extreme. My two cents.
:Cheers to you to Cable,
: I agree, most people who push endangerment laws do it because it provides more money to go play scientist. It does nothing to save the horned lizards. Take the flat-tailed horned lizard into consideration. Instead of wasting thousands of dollars appeal after appeal to try and list it as endangered the money could have been used in conjunction with money from the nature conservancy and other organiztions and BLM to purchase land for preserves. Their are three strongholds for Flat-tails in CA and one in AR, acerage in all these areas should be bought and fenced creating flat-tail preserves. This would ensure the land could never be developed and disturbed.This is atacking the problem where it needs to be attacked. Passing useless laws for personal agendas does nothing for the horned lizards.Jeff
:Jeff, you are making major assumptions that are not based on any kind of fact. Where is your logical and/or legal argument? Do you have any idea of the legal argument in the Appeals Court concerning the Flattail Horned Lizard issue? I doubt it seriously! The issue that has stopped the listing of the Flattail Horned Lizard is not a scientific issue. The "best available science" has in the past, and continues to support the listing. The political issue is what is in question. There is also the issue of people violating laws that are on the books: 1) illegal collection, 2) habitat destruction by trespass, 3) wildlife management issues (lack of law enforcement, lack of funding, etc).
:If there are folks "playing scientist," Jeff, it is you! I do not see you in the field doing the work. I do not see you providing the "best available science" and providing constructive alternatives or methodology. You plagerize other's work and present it as your own on this forum and that is wrong!
:Your issue of purchasing habitat to protect populations of horned lizards is legitimate. I support that issue, but the habitats are not safe unless law enforcement and wildlife management are in place. The California Condor issue is just one such example. (Some idiot likes to go out and shoot birds with his rifle and kills a protected species, a California Condor. They find him finally and now he has to go through the court system for breaking the law. It just some "damned bird!" If the law is not enforced the way it should be, what next?).
:I see "Open Space" and "Protected Areas" violated constantly. Some idiot feels that it is his "right" to ride his dirtbike where ever he wants. So much for "protected areas!"
:Just what is your background in law, Jeff? From conversations and other communications, you are really selective on what value laws have. I really wonder just why it is you think laws have no value. Are you violating that many yourself? If you want to discuss it, call or email me. I do not want to discuss it here.
:Just what are your credentials, Jeff? Plagerizing and name dropping do not impress me at all.
:Lester G. Milroy III