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Re: You were "trying to help people out"?!!??

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Posted by Chuck Elliott on June 03, 2002 at 20:39:28:

In Reply to: You were "trying to help people out"?!!?? posted by loren on June 03, 2002 at 00:36:38:

Loren, I've kept Coastals, San Diegos, Deserts, shorts (both types), And one I believe may be an integrade from the mountains above Ojai ca.(bright orange beauties. The longest i had a single Hl was three years. It was a coastal that ate pinkies. All animals were given to associates when I joined the Army. I'm not sure how the colony did when it was out of my control. I did suppliment ants when i could, but did just fine feeding a variety of insects to my animals.

By the way, I have extensive experience with retiles and amphibians of all types from all around the world. I've been on field collecting trips all around the world and have personally kept thousands of specimens and kept hundreds of species over the years. I've handled 10's of thousands of reptiles and amphibians working with several importers and breeders. I'm not a novice idiot as you may think!!

Chuck Elliott Jr.

: By doing what? By telling people they don't need to feed ants to keep their HLs healthy? This is helping-out? Directly contradicting the well-established premise that most HLs require ants to live long, healthy lives. This is helping out? Providing inexperienced keepers with a reason for feeding crickets and worms instead of ants. This is helping out?

: I have neither the time nor the inclination to articulate what I believe is the "state of the HL community", especially to someone who sounds too naive to relate to what i would have to say.

: If i sound like a jerk, it's because that's what i become when i'm communicating with (arrggh)people(sheeww) such as yourself. The apparent fact that you cannot distinguish the difference between the formic acid in a bee and the formic acid in an ant makes perfectlty clear your lack of experience dealing with entrenched scientific issues.

: 17 years is a long time to have to remember chemistry details on formic acid and i find it doubtful that the knowledge of formic acid has been static since then. Perhaps you need to refresh and get your proverbial ducks in-a-row before you come and "help" all of the hapless, unenlightened, ant-feeding clods on this forum?!

: So, how many HLs do you think Brian killed in order to find the rare individuals that would live on his antless diets? Don't you think that he had an abundant and cheap supply of coronatums for this endeavor? Certainly the average HL enthusiast does not have such an abundant and cheap supply, nor would they have the background scientific knowledge or usually even the outdoor enclosure to replicate his environments. These little details must have escaped you when you elected to 'help' people by telling them they don't need to feed ants as long as their HLs get outdoor UV. If you are going to use someone else's experiences to base your advice on, at least be sure to qualify your advice by describing the environmental context necessary to replicate your sources'(brian's) "success".

: So how many HLs have you kept successfully? How long? How many subspecies? How many HLs have you had success with on a diet of worms and crickets?
: Ever had breeding success?
: Something tells me that you are but another person who bases their happy little opinions on the questionable hearsay of other people. Why go around and tell people ants aren't necessary when you don't have the personal experiences and observations to back it up?

: As for me smart guy, I was keeping HLs long before you even heard of your little formic acid deal at your University. I have extensive experience feeding HLs ants, crickets and worms in numrous different combinations and under numerous different environments. My CB HL breeding groups produce year after year. I've had great success raising HLs indoors as well as outside. Without carrying-on, i can assure you that i have significant experience and success with HLs.

: However, I'm not a scientist, nor have I ever claimed to be an HL expert. I'm not out to satisfy some scientific ego or prove my theories. I keep, study and breed HLs because i love em'.
: I don't have studies that have been published that I can direct you to, nor do i think I'll ever even try. The happiness, health and reproduction of my HLs is what i spend my time on, not writing down weights, measurements, observations and hypotheses for a bunch of stiff-minded herpetologists.

: There are numerous ways to success with keeping HLs. However, it is my belief (backed by 25years of direct experience) that most individual HLs require ants for long-term health. Where are the hordes of antless HLs to prove me wrong? If this formic acid substitute really works, then where is it? I know of several naive dorks who'd love to get their hands on some.

: loren

: : Loren, exactly what state is the HL community in? You sound like a real jerk!! I was tyring to help people out!! Brian McGurty is a scientist doing research and his animals were several year long term captives that produced many generations of living thriving healthy offspring.
: : I also know of several other people who've fed exclusivly non-ant diets whit thier HLs out doors in full natural sun.
: : What studies have you performed? Anything published I can read?

: : Chuck Elliott Jr.

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