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Posted by mike z on April 11, 2003 at 12:41:36:
In Reply to: Re: Toads? posted by Colchicine on April 10, 2003 at 19:34:04:
Yes, I know you and I have done this before, but for the benifit of those who missed past discussions, I'd like to address your concerns.
:The basic points you should consider are:
>>>>[:-Easterns can be switched to mice with no known detrimental effects.]<<<<
Just because there is no hard data proving a rodent diet has no detrimental effects does not prove that there ARE NO detrimental effects. There are too few people keeping the nessessary records to conclusively prove either side of the argument. Anecdotal reports that "My friend Billy has fed his hog mice for 10 years and the snake is fine" are meaningless. I could just as easily tell you about a man I knew who drank excessively and smoked heavily and lived to 90 [true story]. Does that prove drinking and smoking are "not detrimental"? In the absense of facts, look at it logically. If rodents were meant to be eaten by hognose, hognose would eat rodents in the wild.
>>>>[:-Amphibians are highly sensitive to their environment and subject to extreme variations in population sizes, removing breeding individuals or future generations can have detrimental effects on populations already stressed by lack of habitat, pollution and predation by your neighbor's cat for example.]<<<<
I agree with this statement but emphasize that the key phrase is
"...already stressed ...". Small scale harvest of secure abundant species has long been proven to be sustainable.
>>>>[:-Anecdotal observations like "there are plenty of toads in my back yard" hardly qualifies as a testament to the population stability, nor does it replace legitimate scientific research. Only demographic studies can adequately reveal population numbers and stability and whether or not adults can be collected.<<<<]
Anecdotal observations like "there aren't as many toads in my back yard as there used to be" hardly qualifies as a testament to the population stability, nor does it replace legitimate scientific research. Only demographic studies can adequately reveal population numbers and stability and whether or not adults can be collected. Included below is a link to a study in Vermont showing several frogs species INCREASING over a 8-9 year study. Now, don't get me wrong, I know certain species ARE declining and I certainly DO NOT endorse their harvest. However, I caution against the habit of parroting broad general statments and presenting them as facts. This is just the kind of thing Anti-envirnmentalists love to catch us at.
>>>>[:-Amphibians are usually treated inhumanely (*gasp* Heaven forbid I preach about animal rights of lower vertebrates! {preemptive strike to some of the other forum visitors}) when fed to hognoses. Being captured, bitten, envenomated, and swallowed alive is hardly up to the same standards we treat other animals. Freezing them is no longer a professionally accepted method of euthanasia either.<<<<]
What credentials do you have which makes you qualified to judge what is humane and what is not? This is a silly and weak argument which only hurts the credability of serious environmentalists in the eyes of the general population. How can the natural feeding procedure of an organism be called inhumane? It's Nature plain and simple. Furthermore, why would you believe the mice you advocate are treated any more humanely? For that matter are they treated more humanely than a chicken or a cow? Do you eat meat? Are the mice treated anymore humanely than a convicted crimminal or a soldier in Iraq? How about all the frogs and toads you cripple every time you go for a drive on a rainy night? Are you gonna just stay home? Yes that is taking it to a ridiculous level, that is the point!
>>>>[:-Referring to the anti-amphibian poster below and the link he provided… the seller makes it a point to convey to potential customers the collections of amphibians are all done legally. But this is no guarantee that the collection was done in a sustainable manner since most state agencies do not give protection to amphibians.<<<<]
This is a false statment. Most, if not all states provide protection for amphibians which they have determined [hopefully with good science] require protection. Also many states require licenses and bag limits for non-protected amphibians.
>>>>[There is also no guarantee that the animal will be handled and transported humanely, that it will not be disease-free, that it will not be free of parasites, that it will not be free of any bio accumulated pesticides, herbicides or other pollutants, and there's no guarantee your hognose will be able to live a healthy life eating those animals.<<<<]
Well of course the exact same thing can be said of a rodent diet with the added angle of the non-natural aspect of such a diet.
>>>>[:I truly hope you'll make an educated decision and understand that hognoses do not need to be fed mice.<<<<]
Thank you! I couldn't have said it better myself! :^]
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