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Re: I am not sure what paper I saw it in,...

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Posted by tj on November 19, 2002 at 12:02:38:

In Reply to: I am not sure what paper I saw it in,... posted by Kenny Wray on November 19, 2002 at 10:49:34:

I've heard that SC canebrake populations are notoriously neurotoxic as well, yet the pops in Louisiana are more hemo. It seems like it is a generalized area, well kinda. It's almost impossible not to be curious (and confused) about this topic, especially with all of the differences in data. I'm looking forward to reading some literature when the whole topic is explained. It's a great topic no matter how confusing, one of my favorite snakes too. As far as timbers go, well let's say the northeast U.S. horridus, I believe they are primarily hemotoxic, I guess it depends on the source, all seem to be
I think I've read SC horridus 80/20 neuro, GA and FL 60/40 neuro, and northeast horridus mainly 100/0 hemo. I wish I could give the exact specifics, but I think I'm pretty sure.

:but if you are talking strictly neurotoxic vs. strictly hemotoxic, that this theory is now out the window. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I read that most venom studies on Crotalus have now shown that there is always some combination of both properties, but usually with one property more prevalent than the other.
:As for Timbers and venom, Paul Moler and Ginger Clark in Florida have been working on venoms from C. horridus throughout thier range, but I don't believe they have published anything yet.
:As I recall, the venom of horridus horridus is far less potent when compared to all populations of atricaudatus, with the venoms of the extreme SE Georgia and NE Florida animals being far and away the worse. In conversations I have had, it has been told to me that the neurotoxic properties of this population were worse than C. scutulatus in CA and AZ. In looking at bite records from these areas, there was an extremely high mortality rate (>50 %, but I don't recall the exact number) But, this may be a misleading stat as there have been very few bites from this area in recent times (the majority of these records were prior to the second World War), owing in large part to the extermination of the majority of this population due to land development. Keep in mind that this population has a very small range from esentially Valdosta, GA south to Gainesville, FL in a very narrow belt, not all of S GA and N FL.
:As for timbers vs. canebrakes, I have always thought of them as being different from each other in size, body form, and coloration, not so much as habitat. I think the correlation in the SE of habitat and subspecies is because of the limited upland areas. I have seen horridus in upland areas of OK and TX and KS that I would not hesitate to call anything other than canebrakes, but that is just me.
:Try and contact Paul Moler or Ginger Clark, they could point you in the best direction on this topic.
:Later, KW

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