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Posted by KJUN on May 06, 2003 at 09:52:45:
In Reply to: almost forgot..... posted by froggystyle34 on May 06, 2003 at 06:11:19:
:worng a hybrid is two different species, ie. corn snake and king snake breeding.
I'm sorry, but you seem to have gotten confused over something I said. A corn and a king would be a cross of two different genera and not just two different species. Corn snakes and Great Plains ratsnakes (aka Emory's ratsnakes) ARE two different species within the same genus as I explained earlier. Therefor, they are hybrids no matter who's actual definition you use.
Now, are man-made subspecific crosses defined as a hybrid? Yes and No. It depends on which definition of a hybrid you use. A specific cross is a hybrid. No questions asked there. BUT a hybrid is also the term used to describe the offspring of two strains. So, buy definition, the resulting offspring of a line bread Miami Phae cornsnake and an Okeetee Phase cornsnake would be a hybrid. Granted, this is NOT a taxonomic hybrid, but it still fits under one common use of the word "hybrid." Researchers use this term a LOT when it comes to rodent lines. Look into it some more if you are truly interested and you'll see what I mean.
So, to get back to the use on hybrid to describe man-made subspecific crosses, it is proper if you use it to mean the offspring of two separate populations (e.g., subspecies in this case) of animals. Since a man-made cross is NOT the same as a natural subspecific cross that has been altered for generations (e.g., Kisatchie corns, Yuma kingsnakes, and more), then some term is needed to differentiate between a subspecific man-made hybrid and a natural intergrade. Besides, an intergrade is a natural occuring snake that is a wonder in its own light. A man-made subspecific cross is still a mutt made for (usually) financial gain and runs the risk of polluting the gene pool of captive herps of both parental populations.
:i have found many of creamsicle corns in my day around northeast texas and noethwest louisianna
Since a creamsicle, by definition, is an albino, I doubt if you have found many of them...lol. If you mean the "Kisatchie" corns - which are VERY different from a man-made hyrbid guttataXemoryi cross, then they are NOT creamsicles. They are currently classified as their own subspecies (or species by one guy) that may or may not have evolved from a naturally occuring emoryi X guttata intergrade from before they eolved into two separate species (assuming you follow the current nomenclature of these guys.)
I know it is hard to keep up with the most current scientific data on all of these guys, but I fight to stay on top of data relevant to the guttata complex because it is my first true love in the herp world. Eastern Pituophis (bullsnakes over through all of the pinesnakes) are my second. :)