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Posted by snakepimp on May 05, 2003 at 11:45:05:
In Reply to: Re: Rev. Sharpton speaks out about hybrids... posted by Serpwidgets on May 05, 2003 at 06:09:57:
While I appreciate the wit of your analogy, and I will freely admit that I was in an emotionally charged state (as I indicated at the end of my post) when I posted that which you have so venomously responded to, I assert that I have logical bases for my opinions. First, I would like to question your re-iteration of the phrase "in its enormity," seemingly to mock me. Do you know what that word means? Go look it up. You don't know how to spell discrete, so you can't be trusted to know the definition of such a misused word as enormity. I say this only because you seem to imply an insult to my intelligence at the end of your post.
I do not hold a degree in biology. If you do, serpwidgets, then bring forth all fury that you have to prove YOUR point.
The concept of species is, in a purely epistemological sense, imposed by human thought. I accept that, but there is no logical argument that states Lampropeltis getula californiae would, could, or should breed with Elaphe guttata guttata in any naturally occurring situation. There has been much thought given to taxonomy over the last couple of centuries, and it is being continuously revised, and there is much logic being applied to classify life sensibly. Phylogenetic systematics will replace the binomial Linnean taxonomy on which we all rely currently, but until then there is enough evidence to suggest that jungle corns would not occur in the wild. It’s equally true that a Bloodred Motley Het for Pewter is not likely to occur in the wild, it has the same external and internal features that describe Elaphe guttata, other than pattern and color. I don’t like the “jungle corn” moniker because it implies that it is pure Elaphe.
Elaphe guttata: weakly keeled scales, 27-29 scale rows, anal plate divided.
Lampropeltis getula: smooth scales 19-25 scale rows, anal plate single.
Tell me again how hybrids only exist in my mind…and then let’s talk about an unqualified argument.
Further along this thread there are some folks that compare my stance on this to a stance on human “interracial” breeding. We are all Homo sapiens, and our color and patterning are only as different as all the corns in the world. I heard on NPR recently that there is a small tribe in Africa that has been found to contain more genetic diversity than the rest of humankind combined. I think that is beautiful. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with phenotype.
I should not have brought creamsicle corns into this, they are a natural integrade of subspecies. My apology is hereby extended.
I should have brought up “salmontine” boas. Boa constrictor occidentalis is listed on CITES appendix I, and all other boas are listed on app. II. Occidentalis is likely to be extinct in my lifetime, yet people persist in degrading their incredible natural beauty and uniqueness by crossing them with animals from far-removed locations. That is what I meant by “Our rape of the Earth’s living resources is enhanced by these frankensteinian creations.” And “We are making an unforgivable mockery of the beauty of nature’s creations through such practices.”
I did not mean to say that all hybridization is unacceptable, just that we should be responsible in our handling of it. Salmontines are irresponsible, Creamsicles are far less implicitly so. Is the breeder going to keep control over all offspring that leave his/her facility? Doubtful.
I never called anyone “evil” nor did I use the word in my post. I don’t generally believe that hybridizers are inherently wrong, just irresponsible.
I did not use the word “wrong” in my post, and yet you put it in quotes in your post as if to imply I had. That, my dubious associate, is potentially libelous.
I did not state that I believe in “universal right or wrong”, I am an agnostic of the Copenhagen Interpretation variety. That’s right, the Rev. doesn’t necessarily believe in God.
I am aware of the hybrids used in commercial agriculture, and I do my best to avoid them. It was highly assumptive to think that I was not aware of these factors. Some genetically modified corn kills Monarch butterflies, is that a good thing? We (humankind) can’t see the long-range impact of our decisions because of our immediate selfish desires.
“We breed hybrids for the same reason we breed pure animals: because we the results are something WE desire. That IS what it's all about, in any case where mankind has a hand in ANYTHING.”
What a perfect way to illustrate my point about “Our rape of the Earth’s living resources” being related to a “connection between what happens in a population of snakes which live in plastic, wooden, or glass boxes, eating dead rodents, and populations of wild animals.”
It’s what we desire.
Your implication that I may be so stupid as to make you shudder is wholly unwelcome. I have seen your name around the forums, and extend you more respect than you seem to have for me.
I think many of the most astute, and level-headed observations on this subject have been made by Don Soderberg, I like his point of view.
I am a reactionary, but a thoughtful one.
I try to educate people, locally, about conservation, and that ruffles feathers, especially when I try to explain to Idaho rednecks about why rattlesnake roundups are a bad idea.
You breed hybrids, Serpwidgets, I am sure you work with “pure” animals too. I’m not here to make enemies. We are all part of the same community, which is pretty tight knit. We do have something in common, and it is nothing to be insulted by. You and I are very fortunate to have the luxury to debate such a trivial topic. Again, it is just my opinion.