Ignore the previous..... this is the correct response, thanks.

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Posted by Tom Townsend on May 13, 2002 at 12:24:44:

In Reply to: You seem to forget... posted by Jaffo on May 13, 2002 at 09:41:45:

: I know you didn't direct this response to me, but I felt inclined to reply anyway. Hope you don't mind too much...

...I invite everyone to reply. The whole reason I picked up on this thread in the first place was to stimulate a little friendly discussion. Most everyone has seen fit to condem Gigi for asking if there was any market for Cottonmouths. I see the bigger issue as being wild collecting in general. So please feel free to continue....

: >>> Tom, while I agree with you to a certain extent, you undoubtedly can't deny the level of entertainment value we find here on this forum.

...I've never been much of one to come here for the entertainment value of the discussion. I guess I'm too serious :-) ...

How many people do you suppose come here with the full intention of getting their kicks p!ssing people off?

....Apparently more than I thought. I came here initially to learn and was subjected to the same level of abuse that most newcomers are... I got angry, left and returned sometime later to find that my skin had been way too thin in the beginning....

The posts that are genuine, good-natured attempts at conducting decent discussion are obvious, but so are the ones that are otherwise fishing for crap. To these posts, the replies can and will probably remain appropriate.

....My attempts at steering the thread toward what I see as the root of the problem (the acceptance of wild caught "foreign" animals, and the rejection of anyone who collects domestic animals in the US), is finally paying off.... I guess I hit paydirt when I replied under your post. In the future, I'll start with you first when I want to discuss something LOL....

: >>> Absolutely. Now wouldn't it be great if all of the posts we see on this forum were made with such intent? Look at the number of totally stupid posts concerning venomoids. They are the epitome of what you describe. With the percentage of worthless posts that flow through this forum on a daily basis, we have the choice of ignoring this place completely, or sticking around in hope of salvaging worth-while communication and discussion.

.....We have another option... ignoring trolls and repeated threads about controversial topics. I believe it's all pretty well been said, as far as the venomoid/first "hot", etc. I recommend we ask Jeff Barringer if he'd provide a FAQ page for these sort of questions, and then direct the individuals to the FAQ instead of continuing to flog that poor dead horse. It is difficult to get folks to do that sort of thing, as the majority of people who post responses to the same old thing seem to like to see their name on an internet web page, in my opinion, and there's little left to say about the subject(s) really....

If you choose the latter, by all means expect to get dirty once in a while. To me, this forum used to be 80% substance, and maybe 20% fluff and stupidity. Today, the fluff and stupidity has taken over. Check out the banter within the last month. It is disgusting, really-- considering how great this forum used to be.

...Agreed...

But apparently we have lowered the standards of this place to allow our most vocal contributors to be simple-minded fools who lack even basic communication skills or decent knowledge to share. How in the world can you take this stuff seruiously? This forum is no longer the place to expect civilized conduct or education, and far be it for anyone to expect a high percentage of intellectual satisfaction from this place anymore. But I think we can change that...

.....Yes, "we" can change the overall tone of the message board by exercising some good judgement and by being a little less judgemental, but I suppose that would take the fun out of the place, eh? ....

: If you want to change it, start some decent threads with some good intentions to combat the crap. I, for one, will continue to look for the tidbits of truly valuable contributions, while having a little fun at the expense of the morons who should be owning hots in the first place. But first I have a few points to hammer home...

.....I sure have enjoyed your responses to my posts, so please continue.....

: >>> So you are honestly telling me that the apparent "surplus" you contend actually exists is there for humans to profit from?

.....I don't think I ever said that. What I meant to say, if I didn't make myself clear, is that there really are lots and lots and lots of Cottonmouths in the South. That I really doubted that any one person could do any real damage to the population for several reasons.... the most obvious is that there really is NO DEMAND for these snakes. The second reason is that there really is an abundance in the wild, if you know where to look. I would challenge anyone to harvest cottonmouths into extinction in an acre of Southern swampland. I don't believe it could be done... As to your question of whether I believe the animals were put there for humans to exploit, my answer is an unwaivering NO. How many is too many... that's the bigger question, not from a biological perspective, but from your definition of exploitation.... where is the line? Why have none of the forum participants gone off on a rampage against one of the large importers?? I'll tell you why I think it is. People want CHEAP animals. People believe they can buy a few wild caught snakes and become the next Dave / Tracy Barker... I read a thread on a different board that some dope wanted to buy imported Green Tree Pythons because he wanted a "pure" bloodline unlike anything in the US... where the Holy Mother of God does this person think ALL of the Green Tree pythons in the country originate???? Indonesia would be my best guess.... so the DEMAND is the problem, not the supply. As I said, if we all buy captive bred, there'd be no wild caught animals for sale, save a very few that would be purchased by breeders.... If we weren't so stinking cheap, there'd be no problem......

Sure, maybe the population of snakes can handle the pressure, but that doesn't mean I want some dirty, greedy, selfish a-hole out there snagging wild animals without restraint so they can make a cheap buck. I simply do not want to contribute to this, and I sure as hell don't want to encourage it. The majority of the modern herp market is disgusting as it is.

.....Again, I agree. I challenge anyone reading this to look up the CITES quotas for their favorite species to see how many of the animals are sold every year. We are the largest customer for imports. Much in the same way as with gasoline,
we don't want to pay anything for our reptiles either. You made a very valid point in one of your previous responses about the difference between buying wild caught and captive bred... The false economy of buying a wild caught snake is not apparent to someone who is unwilling to take the animal to a Vet. When you can buy a wild called whatchamacallit for 1/5th the price, I guess you can afford to buy 5 of them instead of buying one captive bred animal, right? You know that I agree with you on this and I'm being a brat about it. The bottom line is that captive bred animals are ALWAYS a better choice. The problem is that most sellers get into the hobby to make money, not to protect the wild animals. The venomoid craze is an extension of this. Take a 50$ Puff Adder, do a little back yard modification and sell it for 450$... if you lose a few in the process, who cares, right? It's pure economics... and as I keep harping.... if NO ONE BOUGHT THEM, they'd stop cutting the venom glands out......

: >>> Really? How convenient for her. Does she have a degree in wildlife management? Do we really trust her to make the right decision for the animals concerned? Who has given her the right to decide that the surplus of animals living in threatened areas needs to be processed through HER facilities? Again, how convenient. I have heard the same argument from just about every "super-collector", commercially motivated "herper" I have spoken to. It is a simple front for a common poacher utilizing legal loopholes who has simple intent to make some cash. I can't accept it. They need to get a real job like everyone else, and leave the live animals alone.

......I got the impression that this case was different. I can't express it, but I don't think we're talking about super Ed here. I will concede that I may very well be wrong. I will also concede that no one can give us the right to do this sort of thing. If the State Game folks have any sort of clue what's going on with their native wildlife, there'll be laws. Here in Virginia, I am limited to 5 (five) of any native species (wild caught), but I can get permits to have all I want as long as they're captive bred (here). I am also prohibited from selling, or taking any form of compensation for, any native species. I think that the rules here are overly restrictive, but you have to draw the line somewhere.....

Or have you not been disgusted by the amount of sh!tty dealers that exists in the market place now days?

......I am thoroughly disgusted by SOME of the folks in the hobby today. ONe thing I've asid for years is that a lot of these folks would be just as happy selling used cars or dope, as to sell reptiles. The trouble is that the bad apples are generally most visible, and we lose by remaining silent. The unfortunate reality of keeping venomous (I don't have any right now, BTW... I'm still waiting until I grow up) is that we're all assumed to be crackpots, nutcases, gangsters, druggies or whatever else you can think of sort of stereotype, UNTIL we speak out and show folks that on the whole, *serious* venomous keepers *probably* are the most well informed, best studied keepers there are. We have a vested interest in knowing all we can about the care of the snakes and consequences of being bitten. So, we haveto educate ourselves beyond knowing simply what the temperature, humidity and dietary requirements of our animals... Speak out, be visible, lead by example.....

Based on the nature of her post, I have no doubt she would have no problem selling these snakes in numbers to the nearest venomoid producer...

.....I don't know if the money was tempting enough to turn Gigi into a supercollector. You have to collect an awful lot of ECMs in order to pay for your gas, and then you have to find someone willing to buy them. Although they are one of my favorite snakes (On thing that TT and I have in common), they sure aren't in very big demand. Maybe that's why the swamps are still full of them.....

Of course I don't know for sure. But I have a lot of trouble trusting these folks now days. What's wrong with "herpers" being true naturalists? Why is the commercialization of herps so important recently? Doesn't anyone enjoy field observation anymore?

.....Neither do I know for sure. There's nothing wrong with being a naturalist. I take my boys out snake hunting (it's what we call it) all the time. So far this year, I've kept one snake that I collected. It's a female black racer about 3' long.... I'm thinking about going into the Black Racer collecting business LMAO.... anyway, they're one of my favorite non-venomous (North American), right behind Indigos and Eastern Kings. I have just the one, although I have kept as many as five at a time.... last yearI bred them and released 35 babies into a local area that is being converted into wetlands. I also released 55 baby Eastern Garters. I know I probably shouldn't have done it, but I had no interest in feeding them to other snakes, nor raising them for myself.... My kids get to see catch, look at and then release snakes, frogs, toads, lizards and turtles all the time. Even if it weren't illegal for me to sell them, I couldn't do it for personal reasons. That doesn't mean I will judge people for *legally* collecting and selling animals just because they live inside the borders of this country.....

: >>> Well stated, and your point well received. Just remember, it is just fine for you to post in the name of good-natured entertainment too if you want to, but I understand if you don't want to participate in that manner. You can stick to playing nice if you want.

......For me it isn't a choice. This is who I am, take it or leave it, and I don't come here for entertainment. I like talking about snakes and just about any other animal on the planet. I don't like rude people and I don't like it when people are too lazy to do a quick search before they post the same old question. Most of them are too lazy to scroll down the page to see if their question has been answered, so that makes me believe it's all about seeing their name on the page.... and it has nothing to do with the subject of the post. Go have a look over at the Monitor Forum... some kid named "spike" (that's original, huh?) is dominating the entire board with stupidity and people are responding to him. If you ignore stupid people, they go away, period......

But just to let you know, I have a few statements to make at the expense of these silly fools that think they can be representing our hobby without some kind of accountability. If you are comfortable with the pure lack of intellect in so many well-exposed members of the venomous community, then great. But you are a stand-up guy, who carries a good head on his shoulders. Surely you can recognize what really threatenes our hobby... Selfishness, greed, and pure stupidity.

......Thank you again for the kind words. You're one of the few people I've ever "met" on the internet that I actually feel I could stand to be in the same room with :-) I'd like if The Hunters, WW, Holmes, The Feldners and untold number(s) of other lost participants would return to make this place reach its full potential. I don't see that happening. I'm probably part of the problem, but I don't have as much time to wade through the garbage as I used to in order to find that diamond in the rough. I'd like to take this to the top of the board, so we don't lose it...

Tom

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: : I know you didn't direct this response to me, but I felt inclined to reply anyway. Hope you don't mind too much... : ...I invite everyone to reply. The whole reason I picked up on this thread in the first place was to stimulate a little friendly discussion. Most everyone has seen fit to condem Gigi for asking if there was any market for Cottonmouths. I see the bigger issue as being wild collecting in general. So please feel free to continue.... : : >>> Tom, while I agree with you to a certain extent, you undoubtedly can't deny the level of entertainment value we find here on this forum. : ...I've never been much of one to come here for the entertainment value of the discussion. I guess I'm too serious :-) ... : How many people do you suppose come here with the full intention of getting their kicks p!ssing people off? : : ....Apparently more than I thought. I came here initially to learn and was subjected to the same level of abuse that most newcomers are... I got angry, left and returned sometime later to find that my skin had been way too thin in the beginning.... : The posts that are genuine, good-natured attempts at conducting decent discussion are obvious, but so are the ones that are otherwise fishing for crap. To these posts, the replies can and will probably remain appropriate. : ....My attempts at steering the thread toward what I see as the root of the problem (the acceptance of wild caught "foreign" animals, and the rejection of anyone who collects domestic animals in the US), is finally paying off.... I guess I hit paydirt when I replied under your post. In the future, I'll start with you first when I want to discuss something LOL.... : : >>> Absolutely. Now wouldn't it be great if all of the posts we see on this forum were made with such intent? Look at the number of totally stupid posts concerning venomoids. They are the epitome of what you describe. With the percentage of worthless posts that flow through this forum on a daily basis, we have the choice of ignoring this place completely, or sticking around in hope of salvaging worth-while communication and discussion. : : .....We have another option... ignoring trolls and repeated threads about controversial topics. I believe it's all pretty well been said, as far as the venomoid/first "hot", etc. I recommend we ask Jeff Barringer if he'd provide a FAQ page for these sort of questions, and then direct the individuals to the FAQ instead of continuing to flog that poor dead horse. It is difficult to get folks to do that sort of thing, as the majority of people who post responses to the same old thing seem to like to see their name on an internet web page, in my opinion, and there's little left to say about the subject(s) really.... : If you choose the latter, by all means expect to get dirty once in a while. To me, this forum used to be 80% substance, and maybe 20% fluff and stupidity. Today, the fluff and stupidity has taken over. Check out the banter within the last month. It is disgusting, really-- considering how great this forum used to be. : : ...Agreed... : But apparently we have lowered the standards of this place to allow our most vocal contributors to be simple-minded fools who lack even basic communication skills or decent knowledge to share. How in the world can you take this stuff seruiously? This forum is no longer the place to expect civilized conduct or education, and far be it for anyone to expect a high percentage of intellectual satisfaction from this place anymore. But I think we can change that... : .....Yes, "we" can change the overall tone of the message board by exercising some good judgement and by being a little less judgemental, but I suppose that would take the fun out of the place, eh? .... : : If you want to change it, start some decent threads with some good intentions to combat the crap. I, for one, will continue to look for the tidbits of truly valuable contributions, while having a little fun at the expense of the morons who should be owning hots in the first place. But first I have a few points to hammer home... : .....I sure have enjoyed your responses to my posts, so please continue..... : : >>> So you are honestly telling me that the apparent "surplus" you contend actually exists is there for humans to profit from? : .....I don't think I ever said that. What I meant to say, if I didn't make myself clear, is that there really are lots and lots and lots of Cottonmouths in the South. That I really doubted that any one person could do any real damage to the population for several reasons.... the most obvious is that there really is NO DEMAND for these snakes. The second reason is that there really is an abundance in the wild, if you know where to look. I would challenge anyone to harvest cottonmouths into extinction in an acre of Southern swampland. I don't believe it could be done... As to your question of whether I believe the animals were put there for humans to exploit, my answer is an unwaivering NO. How many is too many... that's the bigger question, not from a biological perspective, but from your definition of exploitation.... where is the line? Why have none of the forum participants gone off on a rampage against one of the large importers?? I'll tell you why I think it is. People want CHEAP animals. People believe they can buy a few wild caught snakes and become the next Dave / Tracy Barker... I read a thread on a different board that some dope wanted to buy imported Green Tree Pythons because he wanted a "pure" bloodline unlike anything in the US... where the Holy Mother of God does this person think ALL of the Green Tree pythons in the country originate???? Indonesia would be my best guess.... so the DEMAND is the problem, not the supply. As I said, if we all buy captive bred, there'd be no wild caught animals for sale, save a very few that would be purchased by breeders.... If we weren't so stinking cheap, there'd be no problem...... : Sure, maybe the population of snakes can handle the pressure, but that doesn't mean I want some dirty, greedy, selfish a-hole out there snagging wild animals without restraint so they can make a cheap buck. I simply do not want to contribute to this, and I sure as hell don't want to encourage it. The majority of the modern herp market is disgusting as it is. : .....Again, I agree. I challenge anyone reading this to look up the CITES quotas for their favorite species to see how many of the animals are sold every year. We are the largest customer for imports. Much in the same way as with gasoline, : we don't want to pay anything for our reptiles either. You made a very valid point in one of your previous responses about the difference between buying wild caught and captive bred... The false economy of buying a wild caught snake is not apparent to someone who is unwilling to take the animal to a Vet. When you can buy a wild called whatchamacallit for 1/5th the price, I guess you can afford to buy 5 of them instead of buying one captive bred animal, right? You know that I agree with you on this and I'm being a brat about it. The bottom line is that captive bred animals are ALWAYS a better choice. The problem is that most sellers get into the hobby to make money, not to protect the wild animals. The venomoid craze is an extension of this. Take a 50$ Puff Adder, do a little back yard modification and sell it for 450$... if you lose a few in the process, who cares, right? It's pure economics... and as I keep harping.... if NO ONE BOUGHT THEM, they'd stop cutting the venom glands out...... : : >>> Really? How convenient for her. Does she have a degree in wildlife management? Do we really trust her to make the right decision for the animals concerned? Who has given her the right to decide that the surplus of animals living in threatened areas needs to be processed through HER facilities? Again, how convenient. I have heard the same argument from just about every "super-collector", commercially motivated "herper" I have spoken to. It is a simple front for a common poacher utilizing legal loopholes who has simple intent to make some cash. I can't accept it. They need to get a real job like everyone else, and leave the live animals alone. : ......I got the impression that this case was different. I can't express it, but I don't think we're talking about super Ed here. I will concede that I may very well be wrong. I will also concede that no one can give us the right to do this sort of thing. If the State Game folks have any sort of clue what's going on with their native wildlife, there'll be laws. Here in Virginia, I am limited to 5 (five) of any native species (wild caught), but I can get permits to have all I want as long as they're captive bred (here). I am also prohibited from selling, or taking any form of compensation for, any native species. I think that the rules here are overly restrictive, but you have to draw the line somewhere..... : Or have you not been disgusted by the amount of sh!tty dealers that exists in the market place now days? : ......I am thoroughly disgusted by SOME of the folks in the hobby today. ONe thing I've asid for years is that a lot of these folks would be just as happy selling used cars or dope, as to sell reptiles. The trouble is that the bad apples are generally most visible, and we lose by remaining silent. The unfortunate reality of keeping venomous (I don't have any right now, BTW... I'm still waiting until I grow up) is that we're all assumed to be crackpots, nutcases, gangsters, druggies or whatever else you can think of sort of stereotype, UNTIL we speak out and show folks that on the whole, *serious* venomous keepers *probably* are the most well informed, best studied keepers there are. We have a vested interest in knowing all we can about the care of the snakes and consequences of being bitten. So, we haveto educate ourselves beyond knowing simply what the temperature, humidity and dietary requirements of our animals... Speak out, be visible, lead by example..... : Based on the nature of her post, I have no doubt she would have no problem selling these snakes in numbers to the nearest venomoid producer... : .....I don't know if the money was tempting enough to turn Gigi into a supercollector. You have to collect an awful lot of ECMs in order to pay for your gas, and then you have to find someone willing to buy them. Although they are one of my favorite snakes (On thing that TT and I have in common), they sure aren't in very big demand. Maybe that's why the swamps are still full of them..... : Of course I don't know for sure. But I have a lot of trouble trusting these folks now days. What's wrong with "herpers" being true naturalists? Why is the commercialization of herps so important recently? Doesn't anyone enjoy field observation anymore? : .....Neither do I know for sure. There's nothing wrong with being a naturalist. I take my boys out snake hunting (it's what we call it) all the time. So far this year, I've kept one snake that I collected. It's a female black racer about 3' long.... I'm thinking about going into the Black Racer collecting business LMAO.... anyway, they're one of my favorite non-venomous (North American), right behind Indigos and Eastern Kings. I have just the one, although I have kept as many as five at a time.... last yearI bred them and released 35 babies into a local area that is being converted into wetlands. I also released 55 baby Eastern Garters. I know I probably shouldn't have done it, but I had no interest in feeding them to other snakes, nor raising them for myself.... My kids get to see catch, look at and then release snakes, frogs, toads, lizards and turtles all the time. Even if it weren't illegal for me to sell them, I couldn't do it for personal reasons. That doesn't mean I will judge people for *legally* collecting and selling animals just because they live inside the borders of this country..... : : : >>> Well stated, and your point well received. Just remember, it is just fine for you to post in the name of good-natured entertainment too if you want to, but I understand if you don't want to participate in that manner. You can stick to playing nice if you want. : ......For me it isn't a choice. This is who I am, take it or leave it, and I don't come here for entertainment. I like talking about snakes and just about any other animal on the planet. I don't like rude people and I don't like it when people are too lazy to do a quick search before they post the same old question. Most of them are too lazy to scroll down the page to see if their question has been answered, so that makes me believe it's all about seeing their name on the page.... and it has nothing to do with the subject of the post. Go have a look over at the Monitor Forum... some kid named "spike" (that's original, huh?) is dominating the entire board with stupidity and people are responding to him. If you ignore stupid people, they go away, period...... : But just to let you know, I have a few statements to make at the expense of these silly fools that think they can be representing our hobby without some kind of accountability. If you are comfortable with the pure lack of intellect in so many well-exposed members of the venomous community, then great. But you are a stand-up guy, who carries a good head on his shoulders. Surely you can recognize what really threatenes our hobby... Selfishness, greed, and pure stupidity. : ......Thank you again for the kind words. You're one of the few people I've ever "met" on the internet that I actually feel I could stand to be in the same room with :-) I'd like if The Hunters, WW, Holmes, The Feldners and untold number(s) of other lost participants would return to make this place reach its full potential. I don't see that happening. I'm probably part of the problem, but I don't have as much time to wade through the garbage as I used to in order to find that diamond in the rough. I'd like to take this to the top of the board, so we don't lose it... : Tom

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