Re: Fair enough...

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Posted by Tom Townsend on May 13, 2002 at 09:04:11:

In Reply to: Fair enough... posted by Jaffo on May 13, 2002 at 08:04:18:

: >>>. Agreed 100%. There is simply no difference at all. But I'm sure you recognize that if the demand is supplied more increasingly by captive-produced animals, we are offsetting the exploitation of nature's product, and relieving the constant pressure on native populations from any country. If most American herp keepers weren't so damned lazy and stupid, maybe more of the captive animals we keep will have been bred and we could be producing a hell of a lot more captive offspring.

<< I'm thinking that we could do A LOT more captive breeding, but there is less PROFIT in it. That has been my whole point since I started butting my nose into this thread, but you have been the the first one perceptive enough to pick up on the point. Why would I breed Savannah monitors when I can buy them for 3$ each (Imported "farmed" babies). Why breed Ball pythons when all I have to pay is $1.50 in quantity? Same thing goes for a lot of animals. Green tree pythons *used* to sell for $1500 each for babies until they started importing captive hatched babies for $250 each....

Venomous are not isolated from this fact of economics. The only reason venomous cost a little bit more to import is you have to build a better box. I could not agree more that WE are the problem, not folks like Gigi, or the exporters (in foreign countries). If there is no demand, there will be no supply. I've heard people say that importing is good for the reptiles because they don't end up as skins that way. Who buys the skins??? Again, WE do.... watchbands, wallets, handbags.... if we stop buying, they stop skinning, believe me.>>

: >>> It isn't. In fact, I used to be the "venomous specialist" for a buddy of mine when he was importing smallish quantities of animals from Ghana. I quit because I couldn't stomach the BS anymore. I got tired of seeing so many animals get forced through the mill, only to be sold to dip sh!ts all over the USA. Those animals deserve a better life. Sometimes, captivity is a better life for an animal than their home environment. But I tend to think otherwise for most of the market in the USA. No contradictions here Tom...

<< I recall those days.... I had hoped I could get you to talk about that a little bit. Open a few eyes here for me and tell these kind folks what kind of mortality you saw....before you had a chance at saving the animals. There is no difference between collecting here and collecting anywhere else. The reason Americans get angry when they hear about someone collecting in the US is that most people can't find a snake in the wild. Most people think snakes are rare in nature. If some little brown-skinned man in some far off land is bagging the snakes it's a lot more sterile and the buyer doesn't have to think about the animal, really. I suppose they think that Gaboon vipers grow on trees over "there." >>

: >>> Thanks a lot man. I am loving it. AZ is a herp mecca, and the scenery can't be beat. Let me know if you're ever out this way... we'll hook up. :)

<< Thank you for the kind words. I'm pleased that you too my comments for what they were worth and you didn't try to read anything more into them than was intended. You have to promise that you'll continue to post pictures so I can live vicariously through them out here (East Coast). The odds of me ever getting to go to Arizona (while I'm young enough to *do* anything while I'm there LOL) are pretty slim. The baby is turning 4 in October, and I've got several in line for College.... thanks ever so much for the offer.... Be safe

TOm

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: : >>>. Agreed 100%. There is simply no difference at all. But I'm sure you recognize that if the demand is supplied more increasingly by captive-produced animals, we are offsetting the exploitation of nature's product, and relieving the constant pressure on native populations from any country. If most American herp keepers weren't so damned lazy and stupid, maybe more of the captive animals we keep will have been bred and we could be producing a hell of a lot more captive offspring. : << I'm thinking that we could do A LOT more captive breeding, but there is less PROFIT in it. That has been my whole point since I started butting my nose into this thread, but you have been the the first one perceptive enough to pick up on the point. Why would I breed Savannah monitors when I can buy them for 3$ each (Imported "farmed" babies). Why breed Ball pythons when all I have to pay is $1.50 in quantity? Same thing goes for a lot of animals. Green tree pythons *used* to sell for $1500 each for babies until they started importing captive hatched babies for $250 each.... : Venomous are not isolated from this fact of economics. The only reason venomous cost a little bit more to import is you have to build a better box. I could not agree more that WE are the problem, not folks like Gigi, or the exporters (in foreign countries). If there is no demand, there will be no supply. I've heard people say that importing is good for the reptiles because they don't end up as skins that way. Who buys the skins??? Again, WE do.... watchbands, wallets, handbags.... if we stop buying, they stop skinning, believe me.>> : : >>> It isn't. In fact, I used to be the "venomous specialist" for a buddy of mine when he was importing smallish quantities of animals from Ghana. I quit because I couldn't stomach the BS anymore. I got tired of seeing so many animals get forced through the mill, only to be sold to dip sh!ts all over the USA. Those animals deserve a better life. Sometimes, captivity is a better life for an animal than their home environment. But I tend to think otherwise for most of the market in the USA. No contradictions here Tom... : << I recall those days.... I had hoped I could get you to talk about that a little bit. Open a few eyes here for me and tell these kind folks what kind of mortality you saw....before you had a chance at saving the animals. There is no difference between collecting here and collecting anywhere else. The reason Americans get angry when they hear about someone collecting in the US is that most people can't find a snake in the wild. Most people think snakes are rare in nature. If some little brown-skinned man in some far off land is bagging the snakes it's a lot more sterile and the buyer doesn't have to think about the animal, really. I suppose they think that Gaboon vipers grow on trees over "there." >> : : >>> Thanks a lot man. I am loving it. AZ is a herp mecca, and the scenery can't be beat. Let me know if you're ever out this way... we'll hook up. :) : << Thank you for the kind words. I'm pleased that you too my comments for what they were worth and you didn't try to read anything more into them than was intended. You have to promise that you'll continue to post pictures so I can live vicariously through them out here (East Coast). The odds of me ever getting to go to Arizona (while I'm young enough to *do* anything while I'm there LOL) are pretty slim. The baby is turning 4 in October, and I've got several in line for College.... thanks ever so much for the offer.... Be safe : TOm

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