Illustrations

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Posted by Walt Deptula on July 01, 2001 at 04:35:07:

In Reply to: Re: Maybe not so good...... Some thoughts posted by Walt Deptula on July 01, 2001 at 03:38:21:

:
: : Hi
: : I have been thinking about this issue for some years.
: : There is an aspect that we might consider before helping neonates:
: : Naure didn`t want anything but the strongest to survive, but we can (and do) help weaker/unsuited animals to survive and breed them later on. If this problem is genetic, we could get problems with later generations. Oh I know we wants them all and for some it is also a matter of future money making, but is it in the end a good idea???
: : On the other hand it is very easy to slit an egg. I have tried to remove a piece of the top egg shel after about 2 weeks and place plastic in stead ( from the plastic used in the kitchen to wrap around fod) Then I could follow the embryo and it`s growth. It was quite fascinating and the juvenile hatched like all the others.
: : Best wishes
: : S�e

: Hi Soe,

: I agree with you that Darwin's theories apply in nature but this is captivity where we (keepers)
: play a unnatural role in the entire process.
: We cannot equate captivity to nature because we guide the entire reproduction procedure and therefore have an obligation to all neonates including the weak. We must consider the fact that the weak might not be so at all, rather that our husbandry techniques (hundreds of unknown factors) may have contributed to the animal that fails to emerge without help.

: Walt Deptula

Let me bring up two examples to demonstrate my point. Bill has written here often of his troubles with Gonyo egg hatching/incubation. He has discussed incubation periods of 100 days where no neonate pips on their own, rather all eggs are slit based on this artificial, predetermined time frame for incubation. Are we to assume that ALL of these potential hatchlings were genetically "weak"?
No, clearly this is a problem which lies with us, the keepers. There are obviously some factor/s unknown to us that forces this human intervention.
Perhaps it's diet related or the water given captively lacks some nutrient essential to the animals and/or their eggs. There exists thousands of possibilities but "weakness" is almost certainly not one of them, unless it is the weakness that our husbandry has artificially created. I'll leave this matter for Bill to figure out as I have my own problems. (grin)

Last season I produced four seemingly viable prasina eggs out of F1 animals, out of a total clutch of eight (already evidence of keeper failure-mine). Incubation day 65 brought a reason to celebrate as two of the four eggs were pipped by beautiful neonates in waiting. One had her nose forced well out of a slit that appeared too small for eventual exit. I was happy. I went to sleep happy that night. The next morning I went to check of their progress and was concerned to find no new progress. This point led me to lift the two eggs only to find attempted slits on the bottom sides of the respective eggs that were not there the morning before. I immediately cut open these two eggs to find two drowned babies. I then made huge football shaped cuts in the two remaining eggs, both of which contained living neonates but neither of which had yet slit on their own. Those two babies emerged 24 hours later, large, vigorous and healthy. These two snakes ate the very first time food was offered and grew like weeds right from day 1. Both snakes were males and both are doing great for their new keepers Sacha Korell and Adam Block. I was left with the puzzle of two dead animals that had slit on their own and two live babies that had not slit at all.
It is clear to me that genetic weakness played no part in this, rather it was the keeper (me) who somehow failed the snakes.

Walt Deptula

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: : : : : : Hi : : : I have been thinking about this issue for some years. : : : There is an aspect that we might consider before helping neonates: : : : Naure didn`t want anything but the strongest to survive, but we can (and do) help weaker/unsuited animals to survive and breed them later on. If this problem is genetic, we could get problems with later generations. Oh I know we wants them all and for some it is also a matter of future money making, but is it in the end a good idea??? : : : On the other hand it is very easy to slit an egg. I have tried to remove a piece of the top egg shel after about 2 weeks and place plastic in stead ( from the plastic used in the kitchen to wrap around fod) Then I could follow the embryo and it`s growth. It was quite fascinating and the juvenile hatched like all the others. : : : Best wishes : : : S�e : : Hi Soe, : : I agree with you that Darwin's theories apply in nature but this is captivity where we (keepers) : : play a unnatural role in the entire process. : : We cannot equate captivity to nature because we guide the entire reproduction procedure and therefore have an obligation to all neonates including the weak. We must consider the fact that the weak might not be so at all, rather that our husbandry techniques (hundreds of unknown factors) may have contributed to the animal that fails to emerge without help. : : Walt Deptula : Let me bring up two examples to demonstrate my point. Bill has written here often of his troubles with Gonyo egg hatching/incubation. He has discussed incubation periods of 100 days where no neonate pips on their own, rather all eggs are slit based on this artificial, predetermined time frame for incubation. Are we to assume that ALL of these potential hatchlings were genetically "weak"? : No, clearly this is a problem which lies with us, the keepers. There are obviously some factor/s unknown to us that forces this human intervention. : Perhaps it's diet related or the water given captively lacks some nutrient essential to the animals and/or their eggs. There exists thousands of possibilities but "weakness" is almost certainly not one of them, unless it is the weakness that our husbandry has artificially created. I'll leave this matter for Bill to figure out as I have my own problems. (grin) : Last season I produced four seemingly viable prasina eggs out of F1 animals, out of a total clutch of eight (already evidence of keeper failure-mine). Incubation day 65 brought a reason to celebrate as two of the four eggs were pipped by beautiful neonates in waiting. One had her nose forced well out of a slit that appeared too small for eventual exit. I was happy. I went to sleep happy that night. The next morning I went to check of their progress and was concerned to find no new progress. This point led me to lift the two eggs only to find attempted slits on the bottom sides of the respective eggs that were not there the morning before. I immediately cut open these two eggs to find two drowned babies. I then made huge football shaped cuts in the two remaining eggs, both of which contained living neonates but neither of which had yet slit on their own. Those two babies emerged 24 hours later, large, vigorous and healthy. These two snakes ate the very first time food was offered and grew like weeds right from day 1. Both snakes were males and both are doing great for their new keepers Sacha Korell and Adam Block. I was left with the puzzle of two dead animals that had slit on their own and two live babies that had not slit at all. : It is clear to me that genetic weakness played no part in this, rather it was the keeper (me) who somehow failed the snakes. : Walt Deptula

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