Re: Kisatchie Corns : the debate rages on

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Posted by Don on July 07, 1999 at 12:35:53:

In Reply to: Kisatchie Corns : the debate rages on posted by John Cherry/Cherryville Farms on July 07, 1999 at 10:15:11:

: Well seeing as someone ask and KJ put his two cents in, let me pose a couple of questions for arguments sake:

: 1. If an animal comes from a isolated population, breeds true in all aspects and its range does not overlap with animals that show similar characteristics ie: pattern, scale counts etc. is this animal a natural intergrade from a past overlapping of extended ranges or in fact a separate species or sub species.

: 2. In a scientific sense why do we allow ourselves the liberty to make assomptions of the original origin of these type of animals and then out of convienece rat hole them.

: 3. What is the criteria for establishing a separate species or sub species.

: 4. Don't you hate questions that have no definite answers.

: Good Luck

: John Cherry
: Cherryville Farms

John,

Good questions. re: #1
Of course taxonomy is man's attempt to explain the similarities or differences in animals. Since it is only our intrepetation, it tends to change with the constantly changing new data on those animals. I think new subspecies spring from intergradation. When a snake changes colors and/or patterns for any reason and that change is successful, it tends to dominate the spreading of genes through attrition. It survives when other less successful patterns and/or colors do not. This leads to all the new progeny from that new color/pattern looking like the hybrid/cross. Eventually, all the snakes in that area have the new look.

At some point, we have to say that is a new subspecies and not an intergrade. I think this is the point we're at with many of the so-called intergrades. I was once told by a prominant reptile author that the entire state of Kansas contained no speckled kings. He published that they were all intergrades of the speckled king and the desert king. How can a whole state of these snakes be called intergrades if neither of the original animals are said to be there?

This forum of collective thinking and debate is invaluable for this subject. I hope this line of thinking ends up with some agreement and therefore foundation for some changes in some of the taxa.

Follow Ups:

Re: Kisatchie Corns : the debate rages on KSF 7/11/99 (4)
- Re: Kisatchie Corns : the debate rages on KJ 7/11/99 (3)
  - Re: Kisatchie Corns : the debate rages on KSF 7/11/99 (0)
  - Re: Kisatchie Corns : the debate rages on Mike 7/11/99 (1)
    - Re: Kisatchie Corns : the debate rages on Jim McLean 7/17/99 (0)

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: : Well seeing as someone ask and KJ put his two cents in, let me pose a couple of questions for arguments sake: : : 1. If an animal comes from a isolated population, breeds true in all aspects and its range does not overlap with animals that show similar characteristics ie: pattern, scale counts etc. is this animal a natural intergrade from a past overlapping of extended ranges or in fact a separate species or sub species. : : 2. In a scientific sense why do we allow ourselves the liberty to make assomptions of the original origin of these type of animals and then out of convienece rat hole them. : : 3. What is the criteria for establishing a separate species or sub species. : : 4. Don't you hate questions that have no definite answers. : : Good Luck : : John Cherry : : Cherryville Farms : John, : Good questions. re: #1 : Of course taxonomy is man's attempt to explain the similarities or differences in animals. Since it is only our intrepetation, it tends to change with the constantly changing new data on those animals. I think new subspecies spring from intergradation. When a snake changes colors and/or patterns for any reason and that change is successful, it tends to dominate the spreading of genes through attrition. It survives when other less successful patterns and/or colors do not. This leads to all the new progeny from that new color/pattern looking like the hybrid/cross. Eventually, all the snakes in that area have the new look. : At some point, we have to say that is a new subspecies and not an intergrade. I think this is the point we're at with many of the so-called intergrades. I was once told by a prominant reptile author that the entire state of Kansas contained no speckled kings. He published that they were all intergrades of the speckled king and the desert king. How can a whole state of these snakes be called intergrades if neither of the original animals are said to be there? : This forum of collective thinking and debate is invaluable for this subject. I hope this line of thinking ends up with some agreement and therefore foundation for some changes in some of the taxa.

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