Re: Elaphe taxonomy and the E. longissima question.....(long)

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Rat Snake Forum ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by Rex on April 16, 2000 at 00:58:53:

In Reply to: Elaphe taxonomy and the E. longissima question.....(long) posted by Terry on April 15, 2000 at 06:59:54:

: Good post, Rex. We forgot about E. longissima (ssp). I would love to see some specimens of the Persian form of longissima. Klaus stated that the differences from E. l. longissima were minor, some reduction in number of scales, and generally smaller size. It doesn't sound like enough to warrant classifying it as a new species at this time. According to the new trend, however, of "no" subspecies, this is a possibility also. I think E. longissima ssp. is an extention of E. l. longissima into n. Iran, and there has been some adaptations due to the large change in environment, similar to adaptations made by E. l. romana. In other words, I feel the same way about this ssp. as I do about romana, or (lineata). But, like you said, we are not the professionals, so we are not the ones to make the changes. We can just make our comments about what we think.

: Systematics: I love Klaus. He has been my inspiration on the Old World ratsnakes. But I can't say I agree with him much on his groupings. The questioning is with how anybody does systematics. For instance, using the hemipenes is an old method that cannot stand alone anymore, nor can scale counts necessarily. I even have my suspicions about biochemical results. Of course my method is very suspect and controversial also, or maybe more so. I'm a theorist. First, I'm concerned with which other species the snake is related to. For instance, E. rufodorsata has some adaptations morphologically which seem to make it unrelated to any Elaphe, but what other species or genus is it closer to. No existant one that I can see. Who's to say that live bearing is impossible in the Elaphe? My Ukrainian dione hatched after 17 days. Literature says dione can hatch in 13 days. In other ways, rufodorsata is similar to the dione group of species. This is kinda how I think. Taxonomists may put rufodorsata in a separate genus, but I will always feel it is an extension of the Elaphe.

: More systematics: There are other species that are very different from our normal Elaphe (species we are used to seeing) that are being reclassified into separate genera. For instance, the Asian species oxycephala, previously in Elaphe, has been given the genus name, Gonyosoma. Although this has been debated, my point is that just because it has a different genus name, doesn't mean that oxycephala isn't closely related to the Elaphe. In my opinion, some Elaphe, like E. moellendorffi, are more closely related to G. oxycephala, than to other Elaphe. We may never know the exact evolutionary lineage, so our systems of classifying are in some respects arbitrary. Now that we have Gonyosoma, however, we may put other species in this genus, like E. prasina and E. frenata, that seem to have evolved from oxycephala, or a related ancestor.

: Finally, my method is to just put species that seem to be more closely related to each other, than to other species, into the same group or genus together. The trick is deciding where the closeness is, if any. The closest species to longissima, I think, is E. persica. I believe these species are not closely related to other European species of Elaphe, and are part of a separate evolutionary line.

: Are we having fun, yet? I have been long-winded again, haven't I? I hope we are stirring up some interest in Elaphe taxonomy anyway. If I wanted to get real serious, I'd move to the Taxonomy Forum, but I'm just talking. Hopefully, it's not too frustrating. And I don't expect I'll have too much impact on the way the professionals do the classifying. Besides, it takes forever, doesn't it? T. coxi.

Hey, Terry,,
Good words and I agree on some points for sure. Funny tho, how we look at things different.
NOw, I have not worked with E. longissima, but I find my E. persica to be more like E. situla and E. hohenackeri. ???
I don't find E. moellendorffi to be anything like Gonyosoma ??
E. moellendorffi spend most of their time on the ground and in caves, not in trees.
They are active mostly early morning and evening, not durinal.
Cranial/body shape, pattern are very different to me. ???

I do think E. radiata, subradiata, flavolineata and the philipine species,,(brain fart), are closely related and more related to Coluber than Elaphe.
E. frenata may have evovled from Gonyosoma, but I see difference in E. prasina. Even tho they both are green, live in trees and all, there is some crainal differences there, ???

Here's something else also,, Rhynchophis ? They are very much like E. frenata, except for the nose horn, they both are hatched with pattern, brownish with black markings, they both mature into green adults. They both are aboreal, and eat rodents. ????

E. rexi

Follow Ups:

The question of how we look at "relatedness".......... Terry 04/16/00 (0)

Post a Followup

Name:
E-Mail:

Subject:

Comments:
: : Good post, Rex. We forgot about E. longissima (ssp). I would love to see some specimens of the Persian form of longissima. Klaus stated that the differences from E. l. longissima were minor, some reduction in number of scales, and generally smaller size. It doesn't sound like enough to warrant classifying it as a new species at this time. According to the new trend, however, of "no" subspecies, this is a possibility also. I think E. longissima ssp. is an extention of E. l. longissima into n. Iran, and there has been some adaptations due to the large change in environment, similar to adaptations made by E. l. romana. In other words, I feel the same way about this ssp. as I do about romana, or (lineata). But, like you said, we are not the professionals, so we are not the ones to make the changes. We can just make our comments about what we think. : : Systematics: I love Klaus. He has been my inspiration on the Old World ratsnakes. But I can't say I agree with him much on his groupings. The questioning is with how anybody does systematics. For instance, using the hemipenes is an old method that cannot stand alone anymore, nor can scale counts necessarily. I even have my suspicions about biochemical results. Of course my method is very suspect and controversial also, or maybe more so. I'm a theorist. First, I'm concerned with which other species the snake is related to. For instance, E. rufodorsata has some adaptations morphologically which seem to make it unrelated to any Elaphe, but what other species or genus is it closer to. No existant one that I can see. Who's to say that live bearing is impossible in the Elaphe? My Ukrainian dione hatched after 17 days. Literature says dione can hatch in 13 days. In other ways, rufodorsata is similar to the dione group of species. This is kinda how I think. Taxonomists may put rufodorsata in a separate genus, but I will always feel it is an extension of the Elaphe. : : More systematics: There are other species that are very different from our normal Elaphe (species we are used to seeing) that are being reclassified into separate genera. For instance, the Asian species oxycephala, previously in Elaphe, has been given the genus name, Gonyosoma. Although this has been debated, my point is that just because it has a different genus name, doesn't mean that oxycephala isn't closely related to the Elaphe. In my opinion, some Elaphe, like E. moellendorffi, are more closely related to G. oxycephala, than to other Elaphe. We may never know the exact evolutionary lineage, so our systems of classifying are in some respects arbitrary. Now that we have Gonyosoma, however, we may put other species in this genus, like E. prasina and E. frenata, that seem to have evolved from oxycephala, or a related ancestor. : : Finally, my method is to just put species that seem to be more closely related to each other, than to other species, into the same group or genus together. The trick is deciding where the closeness is, if any. The closest species to longissima, I think, is E. persica. I believe these species are not closely related to other European species of Elaphe, and are part of a separate evolutionary line. : : Are we having fun, yet? I have been long-winded again, haven't I? I hope we are stirring up some interest in Elaphe taxonomy anyway. If I wanted to get real serious, I'd move to the Taxonomy Forum, but I'm just talking. Hopefully, it's not too frustrating. And I don't expect I'll have too much impact on the way the professionals do the classifying. Besides, it takes forever, doesn't it? T. coxi. : Hey, Terry,, : Good words and I agree on some points for sure. Funny tho, how we look at things different. : NOw, I have not worked with E. longissima, but I find my E. persica to be more like E. situla and E. hohenackeri. ??? : I don't find E. moellendorffi to be anything like Gonyosoma ?? : E. moellendorffi spend most of their time on the ground and in caves, not in trees. : They are active mostly early morning and evening, not durinal. : Cranial/body shape, pattern are very different to me. ??? : I do think E. radiata, subradiata, flavolineata and the philipine species,,(brain fart), are closely related and more related to Coluber than Elaphe. : E. frenata may have evovled from Gonyosoma, but I see difference in E. prasina. Even tho they both are green, live in trees and all, there is some crainal differences there, ??? : Here's something else also,, Rhynchophis ? They are very much like E. frenata, except for the nose horn, they both are hatched with pattern, brownish with black markings, they both mature into green adults. They both are aboreal, and eat rodents. ???? : E. rexi

Optional Link URL:
Link Title:
Optional Image URL:

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Rat Snake Forum ] [ FAQ ]