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Posted by RandyS on May 10, 2003 at 16:58:48:
In Reply to: quick thought...what's the difference between this and... posted by SFgeckos on May 10, 2003 at 12:16:05:
:Most breeders incubate for males and females and the way I see it this is manipulating incubation temps. I and many others have increased incubation temps after sex is locked in order to see if the RT incubation method holds true. I do not incubate all my eggs this way but the ones I did have had no defects. I only used this method when outbreeding my albinos, not with line breeding. I think line breeding and increasing temps puts to much stress on the eggs and thus the bad hatch ratio and deformities. I also had the bad hatch ratio and deforomities show up from too much line breeding with constsnt incubation temps. So in my opinon its the line breeding plus the rise in incubation temps that cause bad hatch ratios and defomities at least thats what I found over the last 3 years.
:say color feeding canaries to produce super red/orange canaries? (i know, a little off topic)
:yes, the birds might be genetically already orange, but enhancing/manipulating the diet increases body coloration many times fold. and to answer your questions, yes- color feeding canaries to enhance plumage coloration has been around for many decades and is widely accepted.
:to me it is sad, to think that many years from now man's manipulations with animals will almost become standard...and my grandchildren and great grandchildren will never get to see and appreciate the "natural/wildtype beauty" of animals that got me hooked as a kid (i'm not talking about just leos, but all animals in general).
:i honestly have no problems with other breeders doing whatever they want with their own animals. it's just my personal preference to not manipulate incubation and i hope nobody holds that against me. i do enjoy participating in these discussions/debates and learning/hearing other experiences.
:I do have other rarer/higher end geckos and snakes and no offense, but leos are actually my "lowest valued animals" in my collection. BUT leos will always been one of my favorite geckos, no matter what. and if i'm going to spend $5,000+ on a pair of rare Nephrurus geckos (don't ask if i have, i won't answer that question), their incubation better not have been manipulated! =)
::I believe it is not cheating when you incubate your albinos using this method of incubation and this is why.
::If you were to use the Tremper method of icbation then you shouldn't feel like your cheating your customers. If your producing geckos that look like Ron Tremper's then your customers should assume that you do the same thing to produce geckos that look like that. This information is also posted on Ron Tremper's site so its not like it's somthing seceret.
::Producing brown-less Tremper albinos is somthing that is very uncommon without using this method. Is it cheating when you produce somthing that can only be produced by using a certain method? To me it is not, its somthing that will enhance your geckos and make them look better: essentially somthing to appeal to your customers and yourself as a breeder. To look at a brown-less, flawless, bright, high contrast color to me is somthing very good, even if it is being produced "artificially". If that is the only way that these type of Tremper albinos can be produced then why not do it if it appeals to breeders and your customers. It obviously attracts many people as the people that are producing these brown-less beauties are selling albinos very fast.
::One of these breeders are A&M gecko. I e-mailed them a few weeks ago regarding the Tremper incubation method back when the debate over wether or not the method produced large amounts of deformities. I asked them if they used this method to produce their beautiful geckos and if they did if they noticed deformities. They replied with that they did use this method and they noticed no unusual amounts of deformed hatchlings. A&M gecko produce some of the most amazing and beautiful looking banded albinos, tangerine albinos, jungle albinos, and tangerine jungle albinos. They also sell their geckos very quikly and I'm sure they have very satisfied customers. The point I'm trying to make is that the breeders that use this type of incubation produce some of the best looking albinos and a lot of other people agree. These brown-less tremper albinos sell quiker and appeal to more people then the brown ones, regardless of how they were produced.
::I'm not trying to start a war, as many of you hear, I enjoy debating about the subject that I love. I'm trying to put another point of view out there, not trying to prove anyone wrong.