Re: What your blood should truly be simmering over.....maybe, maybe not!

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Posted by dave f on April 14, 2002 at 12:54:43:

In Reply to: What your blood should truly be simmering over.............. posted by FREDRICK ALBURY on April 14, 2002 at 03:10:01:

I have zero experience working with indigos, so just let me preface what i'm about to say with that.

however, fred, having worked with other types of herps, i have both experienced and learned that with some species, as each generation of animal is further removed from being in the wild, more and more fertility issues arise.

i know of many animals in which if you breed animals that were WC, the resulting babies are strong, healthy, and decent breeders.

as you breed subsequent generations however (f1, f2, etc), those resulting eggs/babies are less and less viable as healthy and viable breeders.

MAYBE the same is true for indigos, i dont know. it would be interesting to talk to old timers who used to maybe hatch out eggs from wc adults, or bred wc adults personally.

: : Fellas (and Beatrice),

: : I get this email from a guy who wants to potentially trade 8, yes EIGHT, red-throat babies from me this year in exchange for a single yearling Applegate pyro. I responded to the guy that it's hardly worth the trade, but maybe a single pair would be considered since i work extensively with mountain kingsnakes and even tho' it was a single animal, it would compliment my collection. This dude got all bent over my response as i'd explained that indigos, unlike kingsnakes, aren't the easiest species of herp to work with and breed let alone hatch. He states that "back in the '70's I bred Indigos like garter snakes and it wasn't a problem, and can today get Indigos for as little as $200 each"... Needless to say i feel almost obligated to not respond to him. Any comments/thoughts as my blood simmers? (no Phil,no....it's not the high b.p. this time)

: : JK

: Dear Jerry,

: Haveing had the privilige of working with these snakes for a while, I am dismayed at the statements made by your potential customer. Frankly,I am more than skeptical. The gentleman has told you that he"Bred Indigos like garter snakes". To me this indicates that he NEVER has bred Eastern Indigos AT ALL. Not ever. No one who HAS bred them will EVER adopt an attitude of smugness and complacency that they will be able to do so again, unless they think so highly of themselves that they think that they control the destiny of the things that happen in their lives entirely. I have seen a lot of notes concerning temps, duration of incubation, humidiity levels etc by some bright minds posted here recently.
: Not one has given any creedance or credit to blessings from God. I truly beelive, that despite all the so called"Brilliance" you see displayed here, it comes down to the blessings we have in our lives, and if he CHOOSES to bless us in THAT area, FOR THIS YEAR or NOT.

: Your customers ego is an indication.... an indication of suredness and smugness of an ability to do something that breeders of Easterns in this day and age, armed with good info, and with better acces to medicines and also captive bred offspring to work with, have been basically unable to do: CONSISTANTLY PRODUCE EASTERN INDIGOS WITHOUT MISHAP & IN LARGE NUMBERS.

: Given that, I doubt that your "Acquaintence" can purchase Eastern Indigos for $200.00..or $300.00 or even $400.00. I personally wouldnt sell him one for anything NEAR that price.

: The snake he has that you want is an ApplegatePyro, a pretty snake.
: Its a nice looking snake indeed.I know Bob Applegate, attend Herp society meetings with him, and have been priviliged to go over his house and purchase snakes from him dureing the late 1980's.
: Personally, if I were you
: I would sell my baby Easterns
: and buy a Applegate Pyro DIRECTLY FROM BOB.
: The guy your dealing with sounds like a braggart and a boaster. And, as so many have done in the past, assures both himself and you that it is all HIS doing.

: NOTHING we do good here is all our doing.
: No accomplishment, no well planned event,or well thought out experiment succeeds without HIS blessing that it should.We HERE OFTEN "FORGET" that.Sounds like your friend did also.

: Sincerely,

: Fred Albury
: (Aztec Reptiles)

Follow Ups:

Allow me to REPHRASE that so you may see my point FREDRICK ALBURY 04/14/02 (1)
- Re: Allow me to REPHRASE that so you may see my point Jerry Kruse 04/14/02 (0)

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: I have zero experience working with indigos, so just let me preface what i'm about to say with that. : however, fred, having worked with other types of herps, i have both experienced and learned that with some species, as each generation of animal is further removed from being in the wild, more and more fertility issues arise. : i know of many animals in which if you breed animals that were WC, the resulting babies are strong, healthy, and decent breeders. : as you breed subsequent generations however (f1, f2, etc), those resulting eggs/babies are less and less viable as healthy and viable breeders. : MAYBE the same is true for indigos, i dont know. it would be interesting to talk to old timers who used to maybe hatch out eggs from wc adults, or bred wc adults personally. : : : : Fellas (and Beatrice), : : : I get this email from a guy who wants to potentially trade 8, yes EIGHT, red-throat babies from me this year in exchange for a single yearling Applegate pyro. I responded to the guy that it's hardly worth the trade, but maybe a single pair would be considered since i work extensively with mountain kingsnakes and even tho' it was a single animal, it would compliment my collection. This dude got all bent over my response as i'd explained that indigos, unlike kingsnakes, aren't the easiest species of herp to work with and breed let alone hatch. He states that "back in the '70's I bred Indigos like garter snakes and it wasn't a problem, and can today get Indigos for as little as $200 each"... Needless to say i feel almost obligated to not respond to him. Any comments/thoughts as my blood simmers? (no Phil,no....it's not the high b.p. this time) : : : JK : : Dear Jerry, : : Haveing had the privilige of working with these snakes for a while, I am dismayed at the statements made by your potential customer. Frankly,I am more than skeptical. The gentleman has told you that he"Bred Indigos like garter snakes". To me this indicates that he NEVER has bred Eastern Indigos AT ALL. Not ever. No one who HAS bred them will EVER adopt an attitude of smugness and complacency that they will be able to do so again, unless they think so highly of themselves that they think that they control the destiny of the things that happen in their lives entirely. I have seen a lot of notes concerning temps, duration of incubation, humidiity levels etc by some bright minds posted here recently. : : Not one has given any creedance or credit to blessings from God. I truly beelive, that despite all the so called"Brilliance" you see displayed here, it comes down to the blessings we have in our lives, and if he CHOOSES to bless us in THAT area, FOR THIS YEAR or NOT. : : Your customers ego is an indication.... an indication of suredness and smugness of an ability to do something that breeders of Easterns in this day and age, armed with good info, and with better acces to medicines and also captive bred offspring to work with, have been basically unable to do: CONSISTANTLY PRODUCE EASTERN INDIGOS WITHOUT MISHAP & IN LARGE NUMBERS. : : Given that, I doubt that your "Acquaintence" can purchase Eastern Indigos for $200.00..or $300.00 or even $400.00. I personally wouldnt sell him one for anything NEAR that price. : : The snake he has that you want is an ApplegatePyro, a pretty snake. : : Its a nice looking snake indeed.I know Bob Applegate, attend Herp society meetings with him, and have been priviliged to go over his house and purchase snakes from him dureing the late 1980's. : : Personally, if I were you : : I would sell my baby Easterns : : and buy a Applegate Pyro DIRECTLY FROM BOB. : : The guy your dealing with sounds like a braggart and a boaster. And, as so many have done in the past, assures both himself and you that it is all HIS doing. : : NOTHING we do good here is all our doing. : : No accomplishment, no well planned event,or well thought out experiment succeeds without HIS blessing that it should.We HERE OFTEN "FORGET" that.Sounds like your friend did also. : : Sincerely, : : Fred Albury : : (Aztec Reptiles)

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Re: What your blood should truly be simmering over.....maybe, maybe not!

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