Re: Allow me to REPHRASE that so you may see my point

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: : : I have zero experience working with indigos, so just let me preface what i'm about to say with that. : : : however, fred, having worked with other types of herps, i have both experienced and learned that with some species, as each generation of animal is further removed from being in the wild, more and more fertility issues arise. : : : i know of many animals in which if you breed animals that were WC, the resulting babies are strong, healthy, and decent breeders. : : : as you breed subsequent generations however (f1, f2, etc), those resulting eggs/babies are less and less viable as healthy and viable breeders. : : : MAYBE the same is true for indigos, i dont know. it would be interesting to talk to old timers who used to maybe hatch out eggs from wc adults, or bred wc adults personally. : : : : : : : : : : Fellas (and Beatrice), : : : : : I get this email from a guy who wants to potentially trade 8, yes EIGHT, red-throat babies from me this year in exchange for a single yearling Applegate pyro. I responded to the guy that it's hardly worth the trade, but maybe a single pair would be considered since i work extensively with mountain kingsnakes and even tho' it was a single animal, it would compliment my collection. This dude got all bent over my response as i'd explained that indigos, unlike kingsnakes, aren't the easiest species of herp to work with and breed let alone hatch. He states that "back in the '70's I bred Indigos like garter snakes and it wasn't a problem, and can today get Indigos for as little as $200 each"... Needless to say i feel almost obligated to not respond to him. Any comments/thoughts as my blood simmers? (no Phil,no....it's not the high b.p. this time) : : : : : JK : : : : Dear Jerry, : : : : Haveing had the privilige of working with these snakes for a while, I am dismayed at the statements made by your potential customer. Frankly,I am more than skeptical. The gentleman has told you that he"Bred Indigos like garter snakes". To me this indicates that he NEVER has bred Eastern Indigos AT ALL. Not ever. No one who HAS bred them will EVER adopt an attitude of smugness and complacency that they will be able to do so again, unless they think so highly of themselves that they think that they control the destiny of the things that happen in their lives entirely. I have seen a lot of notes concerning temps, duration of incubation, humidiity levels etc by some bright minds posted here recently. : : : : Not one has given any creedance or credit to blessings from God. I truly beelive, that despite all the so called"Brilliance" you see displayed here, it comes down to the blessings we have in our lives, and if he CHOOSES to bless us in THAT area, FOR THIS YEAR or NOT. : : : : Your customers ego is an indication.... an indication of suredness and smugness of an ability to do something that breeders of Easterns in this day and age, armed with good info, and with better acces to medicines and also captive bred offspring to work with, have been basically unable to do: CONSISTANTLY PRODUCE EASTERN INDIGOS WITHOUT MISHAP & IN LARGE NUMBERS. : : : : Given that, I doubt that your "Acquaintence" can purchase Eastern Indigos for $200.00..or $300.00 or even $400.00. I personally wouldnt sell him one for anything NEAR that price. : : : : The snake he has that you want is an ApplegatePyro, a pretty snake. : : : : Its a nice looking snake indeed.I know Bob Applegate, attend Herp society meetings with him, and have been priviliged to go over his house and purchase snakes from him dureing the late 1980's. : : : : Personally, if I were you : : : : I would sell my baby Easterns : : : : and buy a Applegate Pyro DIRECTLY FROM BOB. : : : : The guy your dealing with sounds like a braggart and a boaster. And, as so many have done in the past, assures both himself and you that it is all HIS doing. : : : : NOTHING we do good here is all our doing. : : : : No accomplishment, no well planned event,or well thought out experiment succeeds without HIS blessing that it should.We HERE OFTEN "FORGET" that.Sounds like your friend did also. : : : : Sincerely, : : : : Fred Albury : : : : (Aztec Reptiles) : : DaveF. : : Paul & Gopher Kuntz worked exlusively with Drymarchon dureing the early 1960's throughout the late 1970's at their Drymarchon Research Group. They too found alarmingly high rates of infertility in their clutches as well as neonates that died in the shell prior to pipping their eggs. : : Indigos are definetly NOT like other types of colubrids in this respect. As you you have said yourself, you have NO knowledge or experience with these snake, either keeping them or breeding them. To rationalize and say that because colubrids that YOU have bred seem to have achieved lower and lower feriltiy ratios and have a high degree of problems associated with each subsequent generation because of inbreeding is one thing. To assume that Eastern Indigos were bred "EASIER" back in the"OLD DAYS" based on this thinking is ENTIRELY another. : : If Paul & Gopher Kuntz were working with these snakes in the early 1960's,useing WILD CAUGHT adults as breeding stock, as well as F1's, and they had the SAME if not WORSE results than breeders of Couperi nowadays, then what makes you feel as if anything is diffrent now then it was back then when it comes to the captive reproduction of these snakes? : : The POINT I was trying to hammer home in the last post was this: : : The Gentleman that spoke to Dwight was almost certainly lieing, boasting and exaggerating about their accomplishments with D.c.couperi.... old timer or not. : : People tend to try to credit themselves with ANY accomplishment, however small and that is EXACTLY what has happened to people that work with the captive reproduction of animals, inthis case Eastern Indigos. The real credit goes not to US for studying the snakes, adjusting the temperatures, studying the nest behaviour....that is all fine and wonderfull and interesting. : : No, the real CREDIT for our success in this arena, whether year after frustrating year or once every 8 years is God. Give me all your funky formulas, your hypothesis and ideas, your expensive incubators(I have one too!) and it can all add up to Nothing if it is not his will. : : Nothing.... Or Something.... But we do what we can and oftentimes in the process we forget that we AREN'T steering the boat, we are just along for the ride.......... : : : : Fred Albury : : (Aztec Reptiles) : Fred, Fred, Fred........ : jeez, didn't mean to heat ya up like that buddy! But one thing i do know is that i certainly want you in my corner when the mess hits the fan. I couldn't agree with you more in regards to "HIS" involvement as it is we who are playing the role of Mother Nature on an annual basis in hopes of healthy progenies via human manipulations and unnatural external stimuli.But we all do still try over and over... : oh, and Philler, that weekend is no good -- my daughter's birthday falls then. Let's rethink this. And about that crotch thing -- I'd suggest a trustworthy colleague to have a look at the lil' nubbins. Could be contagious...I'll pass on those waders you sent me. The stripers will just have to come a lil' closer to shore this time. Let me know how it goes. : Jerry K. :)

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