Re: I think he apologized if I'm not mistaken...

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Posted by Todd Evans on February 20, 2002 at 17:14:20:

In Reply to: I think he apologized if I'm not mistaken... posted by Timothy Smith on February 20, 2002 at 16:47:33:

Kevin, as far as mistreating members, you must acknowledge that this post was a member that was (as we took it) attacking us rather than speaking within the circle of the club. That's why we took a defensive. We have all (the people involved in the shows) been under a lot of stress due to this last show. We KNOW it could've and should've been better, I'm sure nobody was more upset about the vendor situation than us. We ended up, like I said, giving the vendors their tables for free as a thank you for support and an apology for what we assumed would be a low turnout.

As far as taking it seriously, I'm positive that the members of the society (especially the hot keepers) take matters VERY seriously. Like I had said before, we follow all protocol that the bigger well staffed shows do, but lack the manpower to be EVERYWHERE. Zac had pointed out the black pakistan incident not knowing that it was OUR (Beyond Utopia) animal. We had people at our table for the entire show, either our own staff, club members hanging out, or our staffs parents, but there was always at least one staff member. After talking to all of us, not one person recalls the situation in which Zac spoke of. If the situation had occured there WAS someone there to stop all incidents involving harrassment of animals.

On another note, as far as the harrassment of the animals. George had brought up a good point when I spoke to him about this thread. His point was that these animals have it good, REAL good. In captivity they have no need to hunt, defend, or stress. When taking these animals to either a display function, a program, or a reptile show for trade, they are essentially going to go through one day of wild life. They've never had to defend themselves in captivity. The Black Pak ALWAYS hoods, whether he's scared, happy, comfortable, being moved, what have you, and he also ALWAYS lashes out. It's the nature of the animal, they just don't have a good demeanor. So even if somebody just walks by the table, he's going to flip out. Banded egyptians are the same way. The only way to calm them down is to either cover them up, or put them under the table, out of view of the public. That's a great way to try to sell these things..........who's going to buy a snake with a towel over it?????

George also brought up another point, speaking of mistreatment of animals. Zac had presented us with a program in which he studied populations of Northern Water snakes. He would catch them, record them, and return them to the wild.....wouldn't that also be considered mistreatment??? even catching an animal and keepeing it captive is mistreatment....I'm starting to sound like a member of the API here.....

Now, I'm not trying to reflare the flames, and I also apologize to Zac for my initial overdefensive response (it was the day after the show and irritation hadn't worn yet) but it is absolutely senseless to label the animals with their relative toxicity rates. LD50 to me is only a gauge with which to rate the venoms effectiveness on mice. For instance people have been asking for an LD50 for tarantulas.....this is absolutely pointless due to the fact that some arachind poisons are used strictly for prey item use and have absolutely no effect on humans (save for allergic reactions) It has been proven that some reptiles are the same. After all, somebody selling a coral snake would be forced to label it as deadly venomous or fatal.....meanwhile, I significant bite is a relative impossibility for a human to take. Likewise, a mangrove snake has a very low toxicity, but are VERY aggressive. If somebody unknowingly was alergic to venoms (bee stings, etc.) then this animal is potentially deadly.......it just doesn't make any sense to use this kind of system.

If somebody has a problem with the way animals are treated at the show, they simply need to find somebody wearing a "STAFF" pass and inform them of the wrongdoing. Maybe our problem also has to do with the customers at the show not respecting the animals in a similar way to the Hamburg shows......problem is, how do WE deal with that? remember, there were only 10 of us there.

Todd Evans
Beyond Utopia Serpentarium
TSHS

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Why did I call you Kevin????.....sorry Timothy..NP Todd Evans 02/20/02 (0)

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: Kevin, as far as mistreating members, you must acknowledge that this post was a member that was (as we took it) attacking us rather than speaking within the circle of the club. That's why we took a defensive. We have all (the people involved in the shows) been under a lot of stress due to this last show. We KNOW it could've and should've been better, I'm sure nobody was more upset about the vendor situation than us. We ended up, like I said, giving the vendors their tables for free as a thank you for support and an apology for what we assumed would be a low turnout. : As far as taking it seriously, I'm positive that the members of the society (especially the hot keepers) take matters VERY seriously. Like I had said before, we follow all protocol that the bigger well staffed shows do, but lack the manpower to be EVERYWHERE. Zac had pointed out the black pakistan incident not knowing that it was OUR (Beyond Utopia) animal. We had people at our table for the entire show, either our own staff, club members hanging out, or our staffs parents, but there was always at least one staff member. After talking to all of us, not one person recalls the situation in which Zac spoke of. If the situation had occured there WAS someone there to stop all incidents involving harrassment of animals. : On another note, as far as the harrassment of the animals. George had brought up a good point when I spoke to him about this thread. His point was that these animals have it good, REAL good. In captivity they have no need to hunt, defend, or stress. When taking these animals to either a display function, a program, or a reptile show for trade, they are essentially going to go through one day of wild life. They've never had to defend themselves in captivity. The Black Pak ALWAYS hoods, whether he's scared, happy, comfortable, being moved, what have you, and he also ALWAYS lashes out. It's the nature of the animal, they just don't have a good demeanor. So even if somebody just walks by the table, he's going to flip out. Banded egyptians are the same way. The only way to calm them down is to either cover them up, or put them under the table, out of view of the public. That's a great way to try to sell these things..........who's going to buy a snake with a towel over it????? : George also brought up another point, speaking of mistreatment of animals. Zac had presented us with a program in which he studied populations of Northern Water snakes. He would catch them, record them, and return them to the wild.....wouldn't that also be considered mistreatment??? even catching an animal and keepeing it captive is mistreatment....I'm starting to sound like a member of the API here..... : Now, I'm not trying to reflare the flames, and I also apologize to Zac for my initial overdefensive response (it was the day after the show and irritation hadn't worn yet) but it is absolutely senseless to label the animals with their relative toxicity rates. LD50 to me is only a gauge with which to rate the venoms effectiveness on mice. For instance people have been asking for an LD50 for tarantulas.....this is absolutely pointless due to the fact that some arachind poisons are used strictly for prey item use and have absolutely no effect on humans (save for allergic reactions) It has been proven that some reptiles are the same. After all, somebody selling a coral snake would be forced to label it as deadly venomous or fatal.....meanwhile, I significant bite is a relative impossibility for a human to take. Likewise, a mangrove snake has a very low toxicity, but are VERY aggressive. If somebody unknowingly was alergic to venoms (bee stings, etc.) then this animal is potentially deadly.......it just doesn't make any sense to use this kind of system. : If somebody has a problem with the way animals are treated at the show, they simply need to find somebody wearing a "STAFF" pass and inform them of the wrongdoing. Maybe our problem also has to do with the customers at the show not respecting the animals in a similar way to the Hamburg shows......problem is, how do WE deal with that? remember, there were only 10 of us there. : Todd Evans : Beyond Utopia Serpentarium : TSHS

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