Re: getting in first!

Posted by Scott Thomson on March 07, 2002 at 13:28:29:

In Reply to: getting in first! posted by Raymond Hoser on March 07, 2002 at 04:31:00:

Ok,

I will add my two cents then.

First I don't know if they are different species, I have never examined the two forms so cannot know.

In saying that I would like to ask some questions of those who think they are two species.

What characters differentiate them. Before you answer neither colour nor size are characters so ignore them they are meaningless.

Scale counts are a poor character because of variability, however they can be good as long as a minimum sample of 30 specimens of each population was examined and a statistically significant difference was found, so if you are going to use scale counts I want to see the evidence of this difference so please give the following backup stats: n, P, F, and alpha.

Ok at best scale counts are 1 to 4 characters. So you are going to need more than this. What skeletal elements differ between the species.

What internal organs, such as lung length etc, differ.

Any allozyme, or sequence data.

Ray, I think you do alot of good things but as a taxonomist I need to see the evidence presented to believe it.

Although I have not examined the species (as you call them) I have seen both. They don't look that different to me. I know for a fact they are capable of reproducing and having viable offspring. Although this does not mean they are not species it makes your case harder to argue.

Cheers, Scott

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: Ok, : I will add my two cents then. : First I don't know if they are different species, I have never examined the two forms so cannot know. : In saying that I would like to ask some questions of those who think they are two species. : What characters differentiate them. Before you answer neither colour nor size are characters so ignore them they are meaningless. : Scale counts are a poor character because of variability, however they can be good as long as a minimum sample of 30 specimens of each population was examined and a statistically significant difference was found, so if you are going to use scale counts I want to see the evidence of this difference so please give the following backup stats: n, P, F, and alpha. : Ok at best scale counts are 1 to 4 characters. So you are going to need more than this. What skeletal elements differ between the species. : What internal organs, such as lung length etc, differ. : Any allozyme, or sequence data. : Ray, I think you do alot of good things but as a taxonomist I need to see the evidence presented to believe it. : Although I have not examined the species (as you call them) I have seen both. They don't look that different to me. I know for a fact they are capable of reproducing and having viable offspring. Although this does not mean they are not species it makes your case harder to argue. : Cheers, Scott

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