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Posted by regalringneck on April 10, 2003 at 21:24:22:
In Reply to: Re: Clelia vs Bothrops...interesting shot & moe... posted by Francis Tan on April 10, 2003 at 05:01:59:
Francis, you pose your position & challenge in a civilized manner & thus I will respond... I'll put my responses in [xyz] to differentiate them from your txt...
I saw the picture(before it was deleted) that lead to all the flames. While this pic showing the Bothrops being devoured is interesting, I'm afraid I find no similar fascination with the Crotalus.
[Entirely your choice, others see it differently]
My reason is this: Why feed the Clelia in question a live prey knowing fully well it could(in this case would) be injured? I was pretty appalled to see the puncture wounds on the Clelia.
[Having maintained many many squamates over 30+ years...I've also observed many many times that prey too large to be swallowed is very rarely attacked. I've also observed when that prey is a snake, it never attacks the predator; for example a large gopher snake will be most content living w/ a smaller king snake or even a regal ringneck; thus in this situation if you read my original post....I DIDNT EXPECT THE CLELIA TO ATTACK & THUS BE BIT...IT WAS A SCENT TRIAL! Crotalids have a very specific behavioral response to the scent/presence of kingsnakes (& Indigos), lastly while appalling for you & the possibly the troll, those fang punctures were virtually irrelevant to the Clelia, as one would expect given they have evolved with this reality.]
To sum up, I do understand that some snakes prefer live prey but injuries can be avoided by merely taping the mouth of the prey item shut. I also accept the fact that some species of snakes are ophiohagous by nature.
[Please Francis, never try to tape the mouth of a viper, for the troll....this might be a splendid idea!]
Howveer, for an animal that's being kept in captivity, a bit of kindness in this form would not be too much to expect? Letting them be bitten by their prey just to gratify your senses borders on abuse, don't you think so?
[Here is one of your central themes; Kindness... AKA animal rights...this is an area I normally vehemently reject but I'll wade in to it a bit here...
For me captive herps have the following "rights":
The right to a terraria that is normally clean, of an appropriate size, has concealment, clean water, & an appropriate temperature / humidity gradient.
The right to a nutricious and varied diet that is what they would encounter in nature.
The right to regularly crawl about outside the vivaria to scent fresh air, grass, & feel different textures & sunshine on their bodies.
The right to breed at least once in their lives.
When I used to feed mostly live rodents, they would regularly bite my snakes, being bitten by their prey is part of the risk of being a snake. Rarely are these injuries significant.
We as interested observers can be "gratified", we can foment & perhaps partially answer basic hypothesis, & in doing so, we can better fulfill our own lives. For my doing this, I make no apologies & encourage others to question & explore into the largely hidden world of ophidian behavior.]
[Vivir con gusto; John Gunn]
:Hopefully the troll & his dullard-clone-aliases are in a stupor & satiated for the moment, perhaps they might give us a day or 2 to indulge in a cyber-discussion!
:Interesting head morphology on your Clelia, appears to be more elongated, other Clelia I've seen & my own are substantially different???
:Did you take this shot? Was it during daylight? Any other jpgs available?
:Thnx for taking the time to post it.