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Posted by The Lizard Lady on May 08, 2003 at 21:13:56:
In Reply to: couple of other thoughts & ???s...great discussion btw..more posted by SFgeckos on May 08, 2003 at 19:29:16:
:first off i'ld like to say that i am proud that the leo forum members of this discussion have kept their composure and integrity. i have seen too many debates/heated arguments in other forums that have turned nasty and ugly.
:i just had a few other thoughts/questions and would like to hear other opinions.
:THE STORY BELOW IS FICTON.
:say that i am a breeder successfully producing awesome offspring using the "viet/tremper" incubation method. the nice offspring were all sold for top dollar. customers that purchased some of my offspring wanted to breed them and also produce nice offspring. in their mind they did everything right- raise the animals in the best conditions, in the best health, perfect clutches of eggs, the standard incubation method- yet they only produced average offspring compared to the parents?
:the breeder never mentioned to them the "new" incubation method, so in the customer's mind, how do u think they would feel??? did they get ripped off, or cheated?
:i personally don't know how the fictional customers would react, but i do know how i would react. i would feel cheated, and i wouldn't ever purchase animals from that breeder again.
:THE STORY BELOW IS REAL.
:this actually happened to a friend of mine (don't think he posts on this forum anymore but he used to). he purchased nice "high yellow" albinos from a well known texas based breeder back when they were $1000 plus each! of course the breeder never told him about the special incubation techniques used, so he produced nice ugly brown muddy albinos...the following year...brown albinos...think he was happy? think he ever bought geckos from that breeder again?? nopes...
:so my question is this:
:does the customer have the right to know if "special incubation" methods were used??
:how many of you would purchase nice looking leos at top dollar that were "specially incubated"?
:i'm not trying to offend anyone, but personally i would not purchase any geckos from a breeder that used those methods.
:my personal motto is to "treat my customers as i would want to be treated if i were buying from someone". i work very hard to build a good reputation and a loyal customer base. not trying to brag, but i have a local customer who has purchased from me 3 years in a row now, all high end leopard geckos- he has spent a total of almost $5,000 and he keeps coming back...why? because according to him, i have "high quality geckos" and "i take good care of my customers"...these are things that i value highly and i am proud to say that all my geckos don't need any special incubation for them to be considered "nice" (some people think otherwise, okay i guess mine are only slightly above average).
:if i want females, i incubated from 82-84F, if i want males i incubate at 88-90F. and guess what? nice parents USUALLY produce nice offspring...peace
::It just dawned on me as to a likely explanation for the high rates of deformities seen using Trempers incubation method, as well as the higher rates of deformities seen when incubating eggs at 90*F and above.
::When organisms are sujected to stress associated with high temperatures they undergo changes in gene expression. This stress caused by high temps is called heat shock, which leads to a dramatically higher chance of mutation.
::The effects of heat shock have been studied for many years in Drosophilia (fruit flies) and is known to lead to deformities. When the fruit flies undergo heat shock one deformity that comes to mind is the growth of an extra set of legs (right on the head where the antennas are supposed to be).
::So basically what this means is that heat shock, coupled with a severe rise in incubation temperatures (which we know causes developmental problems) could quite possibly lead to a dramatically higher rate of deformities in leoaprd gecko hatchlings.
::If any of you genetics teachers out there have anything to add please do...
::Just something to consider.
::-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com