Re: Long post re: egg- bound disaster update...

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Posted by Dryguy on April 18, 2003 at 10:04:50:

In Reply to: Re: Long post re: egg- bound disaster update... posted by Rob Carmichael on April 18, 2003 at 08:11:31:

:This kind of information is invaluable to serious drymarchon folks (and herps folks in general). You won't find this sort of stuff in a book or even a journal so MANY THANKS for sharing this (it is saved on my computer for future reference). I did want to comment on a couple of things:

:1) You mentioned a special kind of hide box that you are having made....can you share the design or what the basic concept is? I just use sterilite plastic boxes with a deep layer of cypress mulch as an egg laying chamber/high humidity area and my females have always used it.

I haven't seen it yet...I will try to pick it up this weekend and give all the details and secrets...

:2) Dr. Mader mentioned to not milk eggs and for the most part I agree, however, this method did save the life of my oldest female. With my two normal vets (and excellent ones at that) being out of town, I didn't want to take a chance on a "dog" vet to take care of this. I decided to "milk" or SLOWLY massage the stuck egg out and it worked beautifully. Had a received resistance at the beginning, I probably would have stopped but I think that in this case, it saved her life.

I agree with you Rob...I think if I had continued "milking" her the first time I did it, I could have gotten all the eggs out..I.E. I waited too long to act...
I was just relaying what the experts said..

:3) You also mentioned that one of the vets said that egg removal surgery would probably render that snake unable to produce any more clutches. I agree but once again, I had a female that (same one mentioned above....she's getting some time off now!) had a retained egg from the previous year and our vet removed the egg surgically but she is still producing big, healthy clutches.

I'm not certain here, but I think removing eggs from the uterus is different from doing the same from the oviduct itself, during laying...

:Thanks again for your observations; hope everyone takes a look.

:
::Sorry, I've out of town and working too much...Here's the final points I've just gotten from my vet(Kevin Fitzgerald of APL "Emergency Vets" fame..the tall, gray haired goofy looking guy)

::I'm doing this off of notes from our phone conversation yesterday...I'll hit high points and try for a summary...

::Autopsy: Only abnormality was some bruising of the oviduct that he thought he caused during treatment(lubrication + stimulation with vasotosin and/or oxytocin)...No sign of sepsis, etc..
::He thinks she final died of kidney failure due to the size of the blocking egg not allowing her to pass feces/urine (urate build up)
::Said the blocking egg, (which he decompressed to half original size with needle aspiration) still was enormous...He also thinks it is still being calcified while in the oviduct..Said there were significant "fibrin" products attached to the egg..The 2 eggs behind it looked normal to him by the way...He has pictures for me of the autopsy...

::Consultation with Doug Mader, Lou Gillette, Hobart Smith, etc:
::Mader: Do not "milk " the ggs out!! (I had already done this) He thinks the risk of ovduct rupture is too high..
::Vasotosyn is structurally more similar to the reptilian version of uterine stimulant than oxytosyn, but no convincing proof that it is better in snakes at producing the desired result..(KF is now keeping vasotosyn in his pharmacy for me)
::Variable's in the equation: Temp? Humidity? No consensus on how they should be used or manipulated...
::Consensus: A DIFFERRENT hide box for laying is essential..I don't understand why scientifically, so don't ask...But KF felt so strongly about this(after consultation) that he went to the Denver Zoo and had them make one for me...He's going to give it to me at no charge(He knows he has to take care of the other 15 female Dry's I have, if there's a problem again!!) I'll let you all know what it is and how to make after I pick it up...

::Questions: Why the good eggs before the bad and 2 normals behind them? No answer..
::Ovocentesis and risk of yolk peritonitis?? (He thinks is very small) but no consensus...

::Bottom line:
::1)Don't wait, after 24 hrs get them to your vet or provide treatment if you can with calcium supplementation, lubrication of ovidut/GI tract
::2) thru 10) See above!!
::11)Xray to see where the eggs are and how many..relative size, etc
::12)48 hr try of vasotosyn or oxytocin(after egg aspiration!)..
::13) If no success with above, get the damn things out!!!... operatively if necessary..
::(His opinion is that actual operation for removal has a very high risk of rendering them unable to concieve/deliver again...)

::I hope this helps you all...I'm still very bummed, but if it helps the rest of you, then I guess it is worth it...

::I hope this makes some sense..I'm very tired, sorry for all the gramatical errors, but I don't feel like proofong it!!

::Feel free to e-mail personally for any clarifiaction or post them back to the forum for all and I will answer as soon as possible..

::In the mean time, if anybody has a spare or leftover female....Carl
::

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