Re: Very Good points! I agree! -np

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Posted by Crystal on March 11, 2002 at 13:01:00:

In Reply to: Very Good points! I agree! -np posted by Sklavin on March 11, 2002 at 12:21:35:

ohhh...i see what u mean....yes, i am going to be VERY informed, dont worry:)
Thanx
Crystal

: : Since this topic is going on and on and on, and, some people are taking up sides one way or the other, I figured that I would add my 2 cents worth and experience into this discussion too.

: : First of all, Jimi, no one that I have seen so far has questioned Crystal's good intentions or dedication to how she sees the situation so far.

: : What people are saying, in various ways, is that regardless of "good intentions" or "keeping the operation under control", there are numerous pitfalls and consequences that virtually everyone that has (and is) involved in animal rescue and adoption has encountered. What should be Crytal's and your interest is , is, the same challenges that happen to everyone that has gone the route that Crystal is taking.

: : Let me tell you, I have dealt with start ups and small businesses for years as a consultant and various other business development positions. There is a reason why upwards of 80% of most small business fail within 3 to 5 years. Unfortunately, Crystal will be dealing with live animals, rather than inanimate merchandise. So, if she fails,then the circumstances will affect the lives and well being of animals that were under her care.

: : The rest of this long post will look at things practically, rather than emotionally, which is exactly what Crystal needs to do.

: : The reason most new ventures ( small business, rescues, adoptions, whatever) fail is due to lack of sufficient research. Most people go into something based on emotional, starry eyed, optimistic expectations. Looking at the situation through only one viewpoint ( including the viewpoint of well wishing friends) is the ultimate "kiss of death". Realize that there are dozens, hundreds, thousands and millions of other people that don't see it your way, but, they will have an affect on your plans. I will guarantee that things will not work out the way you planned - they never do. No matter how much planning and controls you try to implement - something or someone will find a way to get around them and situations will arise for which you had no contingency plan whatsoever.

: : So getting back to research: this involves finances, time requirements, equipment and materials, additional labor, legal requirements, and THE VAST UNKNOWN of unexpected circumstances and unintended consequences. If for one second you think that everything will conform to a simple plan and go along the path of upbeat and positive expectations --- well,then, you will fail before you even start. One thing that I always ask someone who is starting some type of new organization,business or whatever is: WHAT is your bailout plan if things don't work ??? This is something that no one yet has brought up.

: : Let me for a second get back to Crystal's web page and her plan and let me clarify things by making an analogy: I am setting up a web site that advertises that I am going to give away free money. However my plan is to limit it to only $10.00 per week( that is all I can afford ). So if more than $10.00 worth of people hit me up for money, I will refer them to other philantrophic folks who may or may not give them more money. So,does anyone see the problem here ?? The fact is people reading the site, hearing about the site are going to show up ( with hungry urchins in tow) to get free money - they don't care what your limitations are, and, they probably don't want to be "bummed off" onto someone else who may already be cashed out. And, people that don't get money will be really pissed off- they may just dump their kids at your door, hire a liberal lawyer, bad mouth you and your site and whatever else they can think of since you didn't make good on your promise to "give them money".

: : Keeping the above in mind - you will have no control over who shows up at your door with lizards in tow ( or snakes, turtles, insects, etc). What are you going to do ??? What are you going to do when other rescues or adoptions can't help you out ??? What are you going to do when someone files a complaint against you ??? What are you going to do when instead of a paper at your front door in the morning- there is a box full of iguanas- and- you have already reached your limit of 10 - months ago ????

: : Here is some more practical real life stuff:

: : Finances: do you work ??? does your husband work ?? How much funding can you really afford ??
: : Let's figure out how much each iguana really costs: $10.00 food/vitamins each month, $10.00 in electricity, a low average of $20.00 month in vet bills/medicine, and a low average per ig of $10.00 in housing costs(cage, lights, CHE's, etc). So that works out to $50.00/month per ig ( this is actually low, my igs cost a lot more than this ). So that is $500.00 per month based on the limit of 10 iguanas, or, $6000.00 per year - assuming that there are absolutely no emergency vet bills or medicine, the limit really is 10 iguanas, and there are no other extraneous expenses like advertising, travel expenses, shipping expenses, legal expenses, licenses, etc. Even if you charge $25.00 per adoption, there are so many unplanned expenses, you are better off planning on having unreimbursed expenses of $6000.00 minimum.

: : Housing logistics: each ig will need to have its own enclosure - due to incompatibility, medical needs, etc. So the minimum ideal enclosure is: 4 ft wide, 6 ft high, 3 ft deep. Lets assume that you have at least 8ft ceilings, so we will deal only with square footage( rather than cubic feet ). So 12 sqft per enclosure, times 10 equals 120 square ft. or put it some other ways: a space 40 ft long and 3 ft wide minimum. Other things to consider: if you are renting - does you landlord know about this ? What about zoning ordinances and how many pets are allowed per residence ? Also with zoning: a rescue or adoption is considered commercial - are you zoned commercial ??? Also, even if you are zoned commercial, animals and livestock are considered separate and have their own rules and regulations.

: : Time requirements: Assuming that you intend on this being a long term commitment - then you or you and your boyfriend/husband/partner can kiss vacations good bye forever - unless you have grown adult children and/or qualified volunteers to take care of things while you are gone. This is not one of those "I'll ask the neighbors" things. Also, how much time per day do you really have ? I have 5 lizards - they take 2 hours per day everyday to feed, clean, repair cages, adjust timers/thermostats so forth and so on. So, with 10 iguanas( which I find to be the most difficult pet to take care of) you will need to devot a minimum of 3 hours per day, every day, every week, every month, every year. Think about it. This does not include: trips to the vet ( 2 hours mimimum), trips to other rescue/adoption places, picking up and delivering adoptions as necessary, trips to the grocery store/pet store. So, if you don't have to work for a living, this isnt so bad. But what if you have to work, or get sick, or have to take a unplanned trip for days or a week ??? What if your work schedule changes or you have to change jobs or even move ?? What then ??

: : Other things to consider:
: : The stench of uncleaned cages
: : The availability of greens and other ig food
: : The availability of knowledgeable vet care
: : The reaction of neighbors, friends, enforcement agencies, SPCA, Humane Society, etc.
: : The long term stress, commitment and time requirements put upon you and others

: : Anyway I could probably write a book on just this subject by itself, but I don't have the time or the space on the forum to do it.

: : Looking at the posts, Crystal seems so be saying that she has a dream and has nothing but good intentions, what you seem to be saying, Jimi, is that "hey you people" don't spoil her dream.

: : I don't see anyone calling Crystal a "bad person" or questioning her "good heartedness".

: : What I am reading is that people who have been into the rescue/adoption business are telling Crystal that there is a lot more to it than what appears. Crystal on the other hand doesn't seem to want to hear about the probable problems and unforseen circumstances that she may run into.

: : And frankly, I wouldn't care one way or the other if she was getting into trading cards, antiques, hardware or something else that wasn't a living breathing animal that needs specialized and expensive care. No one here wants to see yet another well meaning individual begging for help or dumping dozens of animals at the SPCA because they didn't do the required research and planning and got in way over their head.

: : So Jimi, if you are such a good friend of hers and want to support her, I suggest you make sure that she gets ALL the information, both positive and negative, she needs to make a intelligent, thought out decision, that won't have a detrimental affect on the animals futher down the line.

: : CW

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: ohhh...i see what u mean....yes, i am going to be VERY informed, dont worry:) : Thanx : Crystal : : : : Since this topic is going on and on and on, and, some people are taking up sides one way or the other, I figured that I would add my 2 cents worth and experience into this discussion too. : : : First of all, Jimi, no one that I have seen so far has questioned Crystal's good intentions or dedication to how she sees the situation so far. : : : What people are saying, in various ways, is that regardless of "good intentions" or "keeping the operation under control", there are numerous pitfalls and consequences that virtually everyone that has (and is) involved in animal rescue and adoption has encountered. What should be Crytal's and your interest is , is, the same challenges that happen to everyone that has gone the route that Crystal is taking. : : : Let me tell you, I have dealt with start ups and small businesses for years as a consultant and various other business development positions. There is a reason why upwards of 80% of most small business fail within 3 to 5 years. Unfortunately, Crystal will be dealing with live animals, rather than inanimate merchandise. So, if she fails,then the circumstances will affect the lives and well being of animals that were under her care. : : : The rest of this long post will look at things practically, rather than emotionally, which is exactly what Crystal needs to do. : : : The reason most new ventures ( small business, rescues, adoptions, whatever) fail is due to lack of sufficient research. Most people go into something based on emotional, starry eyed, optimistic expectations. Looking at the situation through only one viewpoint ( including the viewpoint of well wishing friends) is the ultimate "kiss of death". Realize that there are dozens, hundreds, thousands and millions of other people that don't see it your way, but, they will have an affect on your plans. I will guarantee that things will not work out the way you planned - they never do. No matter how much planning and controls you try to implement - something or someone will find a way to get around them and situations will arise for which you had no contingency plan whatsoever. : : : So getting back to research: this involves finances, time requirements, equipment and materials, additional labor, legal requirements, and THE VAST UNKNOWN of unexpected circumstances and unintended consequences. If for one second you think that everything will conform to a simple plan and go along the path of upbeat and positive expectations --- well,then, you will fail before you even start. One thing that I always ask someone who is starting some type of new organization,business or whatever is: WHAT is your bailout plan if things don't work ??? This is something that no one yet has brought up. : : : Let me for a second get back to Crystal's web page and her plan and let me clarify things by making an analogy: I am setting up a web site that advertises that I am going to give away free money. However my plan is to limit it to only $10.00 per week( that is all I can afford ). So if more than $10.00 worth of people hit me up for money, I will refer them to other philantrophic folks who may or may not give them more money. So,does anyone see the problem here ?? The fact is people reading the site, hearing about the site are going to show up ( with hungry urchins in tow) to get free money - they don't care what your limitations are, and, they probably don't want to be "bummed off" onto someone else who may already be cashed out. And, people that don't get money will be really pissed off- they may just dump their kids at your door, hire a liberal lawyer, bad mouth you and your site and whatever else they can think of since you didn't make good on your promise to "give them money". : : : Keeping the above in mind - you will have no control over who shows up at your door with lizards in tow ( or snakes, turtles, insects, etc). What are you going to do ??? What are you going to do when other rescues or adoptions can't help you out ??? What are you going to do when someone files a complaint against you ??? What are you going to do when instead of a paper at your front door in the morning- there is a box full of iguanas- and- you have already reached your limit of 10 - months ago ???? : : : Here is some more practical real life stuff: : : : Finances: do you work ??? does your husband work ?? How much funding can you really afford ?? : : : Let's figure out how much each iguana really costs: $10.00 food/vitamins each month, $10.00 in electricity, a low average of $20.00 month in vet bills/medicine, and a low average per ig of $10.00 in housing costs(cage, lights, CHE's, etc). So that works out to $50.00/month per ig ( this is actually low, my igs cost a lot more than this ). So that is $500.00 per month based on the limit of 10 iguanas, or, $6000.00 per year - assuming that there are absolutely no emergency vet bills or medicine, the limit really is 10 iguanas, and there are no other extraneous expenses like advertising, travel expenses, shipping expenses, legal expenses, licenses, etc. Even if you charge $25.00 per adoption, there are so many unplanned expenses, you are better off planning on having unreimbursed expenses of $6000.00 minimum. : : : Housing logistics: each ig will need to have its own enclosure - due to incompatibility, medical needs, etc. So the minimum ideal enclosure is: 4 ft wide, 6 ft high, 3 ft deep. Lets assume that you have at least 8ft ceilings, so we will deal only with square footage( rather than cubic feet ). So 12 sqft per enclosure, times 10 equals 120 square ft. or put it some other ways: a space 40 ft long and 3 ft wide minimum. Other things to consider: if you are renting - does you landlord know about this ? What about zoning ordinances and how many pets are allowed per residence ? Also with zoning: a rescue or adoption is considered commercial - are you zoned commercial ??? Also, even if you are zoned commercial, animals and livestock are considered separate and have their own rules and regulations. : : : Time requirements: Assuming that you intend on this being a long term commitment - then you or you and your boyfriend/husband/partner can kiss vacations good bye forever - unless you have grown adult children and/or qualified volunteers to take care of things while you are gone. This is not one of those "I'll ask the neighbors" things. Also, how much time per day do you really have ? I have 5 lizards - they take 2 hours per day everyday to feed, clean, repair cages, adjust timers/thermostats so forth and so on. So, with 10 iguanas( which I find to be the most difficult pet to take care of) you will need to devot a minimum of 3 hours per day, every day, every week, every month, every year. Think about it. This does not include: trips to the vet ( 2 hours mimimum), trips to other rescue/adoption places, picking up and delivering adoptions as necessary, trips to the grocery store/pet store. So, if you don't have to work for a living, this isnt so bad. But what if you have to work, or get sick, or have to take a unplanned trip for days or a week ??? What if your work schedule changes or you have to change jobs or even move ?? What then ?? : : : Other things to consider: : : : The stench of uncleaned cages : : : The availability of greens and other ig food : : : The availability of knowledgeable vet care : : : The reaction of neighbors, friends, enforcement agencies, SPCA, Humane Society, etc. : : : The long term stress, commitment and time requirements put upon you and others : : : Anyway I could probably write a book on just this subject by itself, but I don't have the time or the space on the forum to do it. : : : Looking at the posts, Crystal seems so be saying that she has a dream and has nothing but good intentions, what you seem to be saying, Jimi, is that "hey you people" don't spoil her dream. : : : I don't see anyone calling Crystal a "bad person" or questioning her "good heartedness". : : : What I am reading is that people who have been into the rescue/adoption business are telling Crystal that there is a lot more to it than what appears. Crystal on the other hand doesn't seem to want to hear about the probable problems and unforseen circumstances that she may run into. : : : And frankly, I wouldn't care one way or the other if she was getting into trading cards, antiques, hardware or something else that wasn't a living breathing animal that needs specialized and expensive care. No one here wants to see yet another well meaning individual begging for help or dumping dozens of animals at the SPCA because they didn't do the required research and planning and got in way over their head. : : : So Jimi, if you are such a good friend of hers and want to support her, I suggest you make sure that she gets ALL the information, both positive and negative, she needs to make a intelligent, thought out decision, that won't have a detrimental affect on the animals futher down the line. : : : CW

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