Re: For Ig Chick or anyone else for that matter

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Iguana Forum ]

Posted by Ig Chick on December 13, 2001 at 16:18:36:

In Reply to: For Ig Chick or anyone else for that matter posted by David on December 13, 2001 at 10:53:09:

These are excellent questions, unfortunately they require more than yes/no answers. Sorry if this gets a little long, but I believe in order to answer your questions it�s going to get somewhat long.

1.) Do you believe that if we totally cut off the importation of wild caught animals that there would be enough captive bred ones to supply legitimate demand?

Most definitely yes, especially when it comes to iguanas. The iguana market is so saturated right now that I have seen stores that will give away an iguana for free when you purchase a 10 gallon tank. I have also seen stores who sell hatchlings as feeders for other reptiles. Like in any case of supply and demand, I feel that if there were more of a demand for captive bread reptiles, qualified breeders would certainly answer that call.

On the flip side, I have met more than my fair share of inferior breeders who shouldn�t be in the business at all. A good example of this is the Red Tegu. They used to be fairly high priced and now you can get one for less than $50.00 in some places. If these inferior breeders continue this form of damage, it may be impossible for the better breeders to stay in business, they just can�t be as cost competitive because they are doing things the way they should be done. I do think there is a place for the hobbyist breeder, however, they should only be breeding what they personally can care for or find placement for. Not breeding for the masses.

I think it�s interesting that you choose the words �legitimate demand�. At the risk of being offensive to some �there is only a very small legitimate demand for reptiles. And no, I don�t count a 12 year old who wants a reptile or low income families as being a legitimate demand. To me, legitimate demand refers to those who can truly afford to properly keep these animals.

Do we have enough animals that can breed to provide the necessary genetic diversity to provide a long term supply of healthy animals?

From what I have seen in the captive bread market, the answer is yes. Look at Bill and Kathy Love and their work with corn snakes. They certainly have a diverse gene pool at this point! There are many other breeders with the ability to breed beautiful color morphs of all different types of reptiles. I also know that the Loves work with other qualified breeders to make the gene pool as diverse as possible. I think that as long as people like Bill and Kathy Love are out there breeding and working with others, there will always be a diverse gene pool.

Should we be content with the reptile species that have already been established in captivity( e.g. corn snakes) or should we continue to try and establish other species (e.g. horned lizards) even if it means the death of some captives prematurely before a viable captive breeding population is established?

This is a tricky question!

My answer as someone who loves reptiles and finds them fascinating is that it would be awesome to be able to have some really rare species in my home. I will also so concede that breeding programs are a great thing! If we can learn to breed a species now, should it become endangered in the wild, we will be able to repopulate fairly quickly.

My answer as someone who sees all the horrors of the hobby is that we should be content. As it is, most people who own exotics like reptiles can�t afford to properly care for them �there is no need to make the problem worse. I remember when it used to mean something for someone to have an exotic animal in their home! Now, there are very few if any true exotic animals because the market is completely saturated. I remember when a hatchling iguana cost $80.00 at the pet store! Now I could go buy one for $5.00 or less within a 5 minute drive from my home in 3 directions.

Lastly do you think that there is the political willpower or will to regulate the herp industry properly, or is it just going to come down to banning it outright?

Banning isn�t an answer and it seems to me that this is a common thought among the people who are pushing for better laws. I think there is some amount of political willpower to make changes however I think there is a decided lack of education for them to know which direction to go with those changes. There is so much distention among members of the reptile community, that they (the reptile community) are not going to be very effective in helping to form any changes at all. In fact, it is my personal belief that if the reptile community does not start cleaning up its collective act across the boards, they will have no say at all in the laws that get passed. However, I don�t think we will ever see an outright ban. Banning is only giong to push the problems underground and make it harder to get the education in the hands of the people who need it most.

There are laws in place to protect mammal pets and these same laws need to protect ALL animals including reptile, avian and aquatic, equally. If a pet store keeps the puppies in their own filth with rotten food/no food and no water it is a crime. If a pet store keeps an iguana in the same condition, in most states, it is not a crime. How warped is that? Don�t all living things deserve to be treated with the same respect? This is the message that the law makers need to hear, this is the message they want to hear before they make any changes at all.

Trust me, I could go on for hours on this topic, however in the process I�d most likely take a ton of flack from some of the people on this and other forums for it. To be honest, I�m burnt out on trying to get people to use common sense and reason, it�s one of the reasons I rarely post here anymore. I applaud the post you made on medical care but as you saw your message isn�t going to reach the people who need it most because they are just so certain that they are right. It�s all about instant gratification-they want what they want when they want it and will do and say anything to convince themselves that they are right. One of my favorite questions to ask people when they came to a forum seeking medical advice for their iguana is to ask them the following � If you were suffering from (insert your animal's medical problem here), would you want your parents or care takers to come on the internet for advice or would you expect them to call a doctor for you? That usually gets the person all mad and then the name calling starts � it used to be funny, now it�s just sad. What can I say? It's impossible to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

I applaud anyone who gives their best effort to help educate. I support anyone who gives their best effort to educate. But, I am burnt out and can't fight the good fight here on the Net anymore, I've just got too much going on here in the real world that requires my uttmost attention these days. That doesn't mean that I turn a deaf ear when someone sincerely needs and requests help, it just means that I'm tired of trying to figure out who is a troll and who is sincere.

Follow Ups:

WOW!Excellent post Ig Chick!!!(not that I'm surprised-yours always are!)n/p S+S Mom 12/13/01 (0)

Post a Followup

Name:
E-Mail:

Subject:

Comments:
: These are excellent questions, unfortunately they require more than yes/no answers. Sorry if this gets a little long, but I believe in order to answer your questions it�s going to get somewhat long. : 1.) Do you believe that if we totally cut off the importation of wild caught animals that there would be enough captive bred ones to supply legitimate demand? : Most definitely yes, especially when it comes to iguanas. The iguana market is so saturated right now that I have seen stores that will give away an iguana for free when you purchase a 10 gallon tank. I have also seen stores who sell hatchlings as feeders for other reptiles. Like in any case of supply and demand, I feel that if there were more of a demand for captive bread reptiles, qualified breeders would certainly answer that call. : On the flip side, I have met more than my fair share of inferior breeders who shouldn�t be in the business at all. A good example of this is the Red Tegu. They used to be fairly high priced and now you can get one for less than $50.00 in some places. If these inferior breeders continue this form of damage, it may be impossible for the better breeders to stay in business, they just can�t be as cost competitive because they are doing things the way they should be done. I do think there is a place for the hobbyist breeder, however, they should only be breeding what they personally can care for or find placement for. Not breeding for the masses. : I think it�s interesting that you choose the words �legitimate demand�. At the risk of being offensive to some �there is only a very small legitimate demand for reptiles. And no, I don�t count a 12 year old who wants a reptile or low income families as being a legitimate demand. To me, legitimate demand refers to those who can truly afford to properly keep these animals. : : Do we have enough animals that can breed to provide the necessary genetic diversity to provide a long term supply of healthy animals? : From what I have seen in the captive bread market, the answer is yes. Look at Bill and Kathy Love and their work with corn snakes. They certainly have a diverse gene pool at this point! There are many other breeders with the ability to breed beautiful color morphs of all different types of reptiles. I also know that the Loves work with other qualified breeders to make the gene pool as diverse as possible. I think that as long as people like Bill and Kathy Love are out there breeding and working with others, there will always be a diverse gene pool. : : Should we be content with the reptile species that have already been established in captivity( e.g. corn snakes) or should we continue to try and establish other species (e.g. horned lizards) even if it means the death of some captives prematurely before a viable captive breeding population is established? : This is a tricky question! : My answer as someone who loves reptiles and finds them fascinating is that it would be awesome to be able to have some really rare species in my home. I will also so concede that breeding programs are a great thing! If we can learn to breed a species now, should it become endangered in the wild, we will be able to repopulate fairly quickly. : My answer as someone who sees all the horrors of the hobby is that we should be content. As it is, most people who own exotics like reptiles can�t afford to properly care for them �there is no need to make the problem worse. I remember when it used to mean something for someone to have an exotic animal in their home! Now, there are very few if any true exotic animals because the market is completely saturated. I remember when a hatchling iguana cost $80.00 at the pet store! Now I could go buy one for $5.00 or less within a 5 minute drive from my home in 3 directions. : Lastly do you think that there is the political willpower or will to regulate the herp industry properly, or is it just going to come down to banning it outright? : Banning isn�t an answer and it seems to me that this is a common thought among the people who are pushing for better laws. I think there is some amount of political willpower to make changes however I think there is a decided lack of education for them to know which direction to go with those changes. There is so much distention among members of the reptile community, that they (the reptile community) are not going to be very effective in helping to form any changes at all. In fact, it is my personal belief that if the reptile community does not start cleaning up its collective act across the boards, they will have no say at all in the laws that get passed. However, I don�t think we will ever see an outright ban. Banning is only giong to push the problems underground and make it harder to get the education in the hands of the people who need it most. : There are laws in place to protect mammal pets and these same laws need to protect ALL animals including reptile, avian and aquatic, equally. If a pet store keeps the puppies in their own filth with rotten food/no food and no water it is a crime. If a pet store keeps an iguana in the same condition, in most states, it is not a crime. How warped is that? Don�t all living things deserve to be treated with the same respect? This is the message that the law makers need to hear, this is the message they want to hear before they make any changes at all. : Trust me, I could go on for hours on this topic, however in the process I�d most likely take a ton of flack from some of the people on this and other forums for it. To be honest, I�m burnt out on trying to get people to use common sense and reason, it�s one of the reasons I rarely post here anymore. I applaud the post you made on medical care but as you saw your message isn�t going to reach the people who need it most because they are just so certain that they are right. It�s all about instant gratification-they want what they want when they want it and will do and say anything to convince themselves that they are right. One of my favorite questions to ask people when they came to a forum seeking medical advice for their iguana is to ask them the following � If you were suffering from (insert your animal's medical problem here), would you want your parents or care takers to come on the internet for advice or would you expect them to call a doctor for you? That usually gets the person all mad and then the name calling starts � it used to be funny, now it�s just sad. What can I say? It's impossible to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. : I applaud anyone who gives their best effort to help educate. I support anyone who gives their best effort to educate. But, I am burnt out and can't fight the good fight here on the Net anymore, I've just got too much going on here in the real world that requires my uttmost attention these days. That doesn't mean that I turn a deaf ear when someone sincerely needs and requests help, it just means that I'm tired of trying to figure out who is a troll and who is sincere.

Optional Link URL:
Link Title:
Optional Image URL:

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Iguana Forum ]