I can't argue with newer research...:)

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Posted by Jason Z. on August 17, 1998 at 12:40:02:

In Reply to: Re: A little clarification... posted by Dave on August 16, 1998 at 08:06:33:

Hey Dave,

Thanks for putting this complete argument together for me. Seems hard to disagree with. I personally have not had problems with feeding protein to my young iguanas, but I also know alot more about nutritional content of food than I did. I think I could now provide enough protein from plant sources.

I have perpetuated this discussion mostly because new herpers often feed inadequate diets (as stated in your quote) and I always thought that it was easier for most to introduce some animal protein than have the animal be malnutritioned. It looks though, that new research indicates that even this may cause health problems. I think that a better solution is to educate people in the nutrition of vegetable based diets and non-animal protein. I think that is where the difficulty lies for most new herpers.

Thanks again for being patient with me and truly following through on this discussion, Dave. I hope this discourse has been as enlightening to others as it has me.

Good Luck,

Jason

: :..." In response to Dave, I am talking about very small amounts of protein in addition to a complete diet. I AM NOT talking about "large or moderate" amounts of dog food. Your quotation fully supports my assertion that the types of health problems associated with feeding dog food only occur when large amounts of dog food are fed. It is a safe and pure source of protein that can be added (10-15%) to a growing iguana's diet giving them variety and the protein they need. With dog food you needn't worry about pesticides as with insects and it is available year round. Also, check your facts--high D content is a problem with monkey chow--not dog food, they are completely different....."

: 1) "large or moderate does not mean large, it means large OR MODERATE. 2) Vitamin D3 is a large part of all carnivore (monkey, dog or cat) diets, again, this is not me but Fredric Frye, the foremost recognised author and reptile vet in the world 3) I did not come up with this stuff, here are the quotes and sources; if you read carefully you will note that the latest data from the following experts shoes NO animal proteins should be fed. This is not based on anacdote but on empirical data from clinical studies (the following is an exerp from Melissa Kaplin's article on "Iguana Diet":

: "For years, it was thought that iguanas were omnivores, consuming both animal and plant matter. This was compounded by research into raising iguanas for food which found that iguanas fed high quantities of protein grew much more quickly to a size suitable for slaughter. The fact that this diet killed iguanas at around seven years of age mattered little as they were killed and consumed long before then. The recommended diets coming out of this era (and still, unfortunately, found in recently published books), included significant amounts of animal-based protein such as meal worms, pink mice, crickets, chicken and beef flesh, meat-based omnivore or carnivore zoo food products, and cat food. Much of the mainstream veterinary literature apparently just picked up on whatever the available popular pet iguana books listed for diets, so you will often find veterinarians who have not kept up with recent reptile veterinary literature recommending animal protein components ranging from fifty percent protein for hatchlings (Jeffrey Jenkins DVM, client information sheet) down to thirty-three percent (Nancy Anderson DVM, The Compendium 13(8)), fifteen percent (Stephen Barten DVM, Veterinary Clinics of North America Small Animal Practice/Exotic Pet Medicine 23(6)) and no animal protein (Fredric Frye, 1993, who recommends plant-based proteins). Others, such as Thomas Boyer DVM, recommend a higher volume (twenty percent) of certain animal-based foods such as trout and cichlid chows, vertebrates and bird chows, but a lower volume (five percent) if fed monkey biscuits or dog chow (Journal of Small Exotic Animal Medicine 1(1)). Some vets, such as Jenkins and Barten, who previously recommended small amounts of animal protein as being safe, in the past couple of years, based on continued research into iguana nutrition and what they and other vets have been seeing in their practices, have come to the conclusion that no animal protein is suitable or safe.

: Dr. C. Richard Tracy, formerly of Colorado State University at Ft. Collins, who has been studying iguana nutrition, states "It is very difficult to give a diet that is too low in protein as long as the animals get a balanced 'salad' of food (including alfalfa for protein) and also get plenty of UV radiation." (Iguana Times 1(6):15). Jenkins, in his earlier handout, stated "Captive young iguanas do poorly eating a diet of grocery store vegetables. Perhaps because of their rapid rate of growth, it is essential that they be supplemented with protein and a balanced source of calcium." Jenkins is correct in that most people's idea of 'vegetables' includes a long list of low calorie foods containing little in the way of nutrition: lettuces, zucchini, tomatoes, cucumbers, mushrooms, vegetable and bean sprouts and watermelon are some of the more commonly fed non-nutritious foods.

: The fact of the matter is, iguanas can--and should--be raised on strictly plant-based diets, with protein coming from plant materials. They do not need, and should not have, monkey, trout or carnivore or omnivore chows, chicken, beef or other animal flesh, dairy products, eggs, worms, mice, crickets, cat food, and dog food. Despite this fact, there are still books being published today which recommend some or all of these foods."

: Again, this information is from the leading researchers in the field. And Jason, I also appreciate the "lively" discussion we can have here. Good herping.

: Dave

Follow Ups:

Re: newer research...:) Dave 8/18/98 (0)
Re: I can't argue with newer research...:) Mark 8/17/98 (0)

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: Hey Dave, : Thanks for putting this complete argument together for me. Seems hard to disagree with. I personally have not had problems with feeding protein to my young iguanas, but I also know alot more about nutritional content of food than I did. I think I could now provide enough protein from plant sources. : I have perpetuated this discussion mostly because new herpers often feed inadequate diets (as stated in your quote) and I always thought that it was easier for most to introduce some animal protein than have the animal be malnutritioned. It looks though, that new research indicates that even this may cause health problems. I think that a better solution is to educate people in the nutrition of vegetable based diets and non-animal protein. I think that is where the difficulty lies for most new herpers. : Thanks again for being patient with me and truly following through on this discussion, Dave. I hope this discourse has been as enlightening to others as it has me. : Good Luck, : Jason : : :..." In response to Dave, I am talking about very small amounts of protein in addition to a complete diet. I AM NOT talking about "large or moderate" amounts of dog food. Your quotation fully supports my assertion that the types of health problems associated with feeding dog food only occur when large amounts of dog food are fed. It is a safe and pure source of protein that can be added (10-15%) to a growing iguana's diet giving them variety and the protein they need. With dog food you needn't worry about pesticides as with insects and it is available year round. Also, check your facts--high D content is a problem with monkey chow--not dog food, they are completely different....." : : 1) "large or moderate does not mean large, it means large OR MODERATE. 2) Vitamin D3 is a large part of all carnivore (monkey, dog or cat) diets, again, this is not me but Fredric Frye, the foremost recognised author and reptile vet in the world 3) I did not come up with this stuff, here are the quotes and sources; if you read carefully you will note that the latest data from the following experts shoes NO animal proteins should be fed. This is not based on anacdote but on empirical data from clinical studies (the following is an exerp from Melissa Kaplin's article on "Iguana Diet": : : "For years, it was thought that iguanas were omnivores, consuming both animal and plant matter. This was compounded by research into raising iguanas for food which found that iguanas fed high quantities of protein grew much more quickly to a size suitable for slaughter. The fact that this diet killed iguanas at around seven years of age mattered little as they were killed and consumed long before then. The recommended diets coming out of this era (and still, unfortunately, found in recently published books), included significant amounts of animal-based protein such as meal worms, pink mice, crickets, chicken and beef flesh, meat-based omnivore or carnivore zoo food products, and cat food. Much of the mainstream veterinary literature apparently just picked up on whatever the available popular pet iguana books listed for diets, so you will often find veterinarians who have not kept up with recent reptile veterinary literature recommending animal protein components ranging from fifty percent protein for hatchlings (Jeffrey Jenkins DVM, client information sheet) down to thirty-three percent (Nancy Anderson DVM, The Compendium 13(8)), fifteen percent (Stephen Barten DVM, Veterinary Clinics of North America Small Animal Practice/Exotic Pet Medicine 23(6)) and no animal protein (Fredric Frye, 1993, who recommends plant-based proteins). Others, such as Thomas Boyer DVM, recommend a higher volume (twenty percent) of certain animal-based foods such as trout and cichlid chows, vertebrates and bird chows, but a lower volume (five percent) if fed monkey biscuits or dog chow (Journal of Small Exotic Animal Medicine 1(1)). Some vets, such as Jenkins and Barten, who previously recommended small amounts of animal protein as being safe, in the past couple of years, based on continued research into iguana nutrition and what they and other vets have been seeing in their practices, have come to the conclusion that no animal protein is suitable or safe. : : Dr. C. Richard Tracy, formerly of Colorado State University at Ft. Collins, who has been studying iguana nutrition, states "It is very difficult to give a diet that is too low in protein as long as the animals get a balanced 'salad' of food (including alfalfa for protein) and also get plenty of UV radiation." (Iguana Times 1(6):15). Jenkins, in his earlier handout, stated "Captive young iguanas do poorly eating a diet of grocery store vegetables. Perhaps because of their rapid rate of growth, it is essential that they be supplemented with protein and a balanced source of calcium." Jenkins is correct in that most people's idea of 'vegetables' includes a long list of low calorie foods containing little in the way of nutrition: lettuces, zucchini, tomatoes, cucumbers, mushrooms, vegetable and bean sprouts and watermelon are some of the more commonly fed non-nutritious foods. : : The fact of the matter is, iguanas can--and should--be raised on strictly plant-based diets, with protein coming from plant materials. They do not need, and should not have, monkey, trout or carnivore or omnivore chows, chicken, beef or other animal flesh, dairy products, eggs, worms, mice, crickets, cat food, and dog food. Despite this fact, there are still books being published today which recommend some or all of these foods." : : Again, this information is from the leading researchers in the field. And Jason, I also appreciate the "lively" discussion we can have here. Good herping. : : Dave

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