i finf it hard to believe that two sub-species of beaded lizards........

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Posted by steve on January 15, 2002 at 10:10:36:

In Reply to: H. h. alvarezi = H. h. charlesbogerti posted by HerpNut on January 15, 2002 at 03:25:47:

: Black Beaded Lizard, H. h. alvarezi, are melanistic as adults only. Black Beadeds hatch very vividly colored, just like Common or Mexican Beaded Lizard, H. horridum. They go through an ontogenetic color chage as the mature. The do not always completely loose their markings either.

: Blue or Guatemalan Beaded Lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti, is the southern most subspecie. only found in Guatemala.

: Blue or Guatemalan Beaded Lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti, is now considered synonymous with H. h. alvarezi.

: I personaly do not agree. Besides the fact that H. h. alvarezi become melanistic with age and H. h. chalesbogerti does not. Both subspecies live in different micro-environments. And, there is over 150 miles of unsuitable habitat between recoded ranges of H. h. alvarezi and H. h. chalesbogerti.

: According to Janice Perry form the Sonora Desert Museum in Tucson, AZ. Janice has done DNA testing to evaluate Heloderma horridum subspecies and concluded that H. h. charlesbogerti is geneticly unidentifiable from H. h. alvarezi.

: H. h. alvarezi/charlesbogerti DNA is considerably different from DNA of H. horridum and DNA of H. h. exasperatum.
:
: However, I am not a Herpetologist or a taxonomist autority to dissagree with Janice P. hard work. I am just another reptile hobbiest.

: HerpNut

that have two "undeniably" different dna's can be considered as you put it synonymous with each other. thats contradicting..also i don't believe that black beadeds hatch with any color and go through an ontogenetic change to a more melanistic looking lizard. if you're seeing black beadeds with color as hatchlings they aren't pure alvarezi, but more then likely integrades. if a hatchling beaded comes into this world with any trace of color on it will not disappear, but in fact will stay with it for the remainder of its life. the color might fade but not disappear. i've had exasperatums that were off the hook as hatchlings but as they matured they kept the same pattern but the yellow became more dull and less striking. i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder just as the below debate was presented with the gilas.

: : alvarezi beadeds are pitch black. no trace what so ever of yellow markings on their body. i've never heard the term blue beaded used to describe c. bogerti beadeds. i think you combined to sub-species into one description. i've seen, photographed, and held alvarezi beadeds and that looks nothing like them. alvarezi are so uncommon, there's no mistaking it once you see them.

Follow Ups:

Re: i finf it hard to believe that two sub-species of beaded lizards........ HerpNut 01/15/02 (7)
- Hey guys, what about the different physical characteristics...... kerry 01/15/02 (2)
  - Kerry, What are you talking about???... More... HerpNut 01/15/02 (1)
    - From what I've read about the two...... kerry 01/16/02 (0)
- IS THIS LUIS.........aka herp nut?????? whats your real name? steve 01/15/02 (3)
  - Ssshhh.... I am HerpNut.... Steve, e-mail me....n/p HerpNut 01/15/02 (2)
    - Luis, did you ever get your beadeds back? n/p John 01/15/02 (1)
      - John... HerpNut 01/17/02 (0)

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: : Black Beaded Lizard, H. h. alvarezi, are melanistic as adults only. Black Beadeds hatch very vividly colored, just like Common or Mexican Beaded Lizard, H. horridum. They go through an ontogenetic color chage as the mature. The do not always completely loose their markings either. : : Blue or Guatemalan Beaded Lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti, is the southern most subspecie. only found in Guatemala. : : Blue or Guatemalan Beaded Lizard, H. h. charlesbogerti, is now considered synonymous with H. h. alvarezi. : : I personaly do not agree. Besides the fact that H. h. alvarezi become melanistic with age and H. h. chalesbogerti does not. Both subspecies live in different micro-environments. And, there is over 150 miles of unsuitable habitat between recoded ranges of H. h. alvarezi and H. h. chalesbogerti. : : According to Janice Perry form the Sonora Desert Museum in Tucson, AZ. Janice has done DNA testing to evaluate Heloderma horridum subspecies and concluded that H. h. charlesbogerti is geneticly unidentifiable from H. h. alvarezi. : : H. h. alvarezi/charlesbogerti DNA is considerably different from DNA of H. horridum and DNA of H. h. exasperatum. : : : : However, I am not a Herpetologist or a taxonomist autority to dissagree with Janice P. hard work. I am just another reptile hobbiest. : : HerpNut : : that have two "undeniably" different dna's can be considered as you put it synonymous with each other. thats contradicting..also i don't believe that black beadeds hatch with any color and go through an ontogenetic change to a more melanistic looking lizard. if you're seeing black beadeds with color as hatchlings they aren't pure alvarezi, but more then likely integrades. if a hatchling beaded comes into this world with any trace of color on it will not disappear, but in fact will stay with it for the remainder of its life. the color might fade but not disappear. i've had exasperatums that were off the hook as hatchlings but as they matured they kept the same pattern but the yellow became more dull and less striking. i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder just as the below debate was presented with the gilas. : : : : alvarezi beadeds are pitch black. no trace what so ever of yellow markings on their body. i've never heard the term blue beaded used to describe c. bogerti beadeds. i think you combined to sub-species into one description. i've seen, photographed, and held alvarezi beadeds and that looks nothing like them. alvarezi are so uncommon, there's no mistaking it once you see them.

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