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Posted by jared w on May 12, 2003 at 16:01:37:
In Reply to: Unfortunately..... posted by tj on May 12, 2003 at 08:57:46:
:there will never be enough proof. You would think that the fact that NOT ONE of the "performing surgeons" is a licensed vet in a completely non-sterile environment would be enough, but it's not. What I want to know is, when you see all of the pictures and hear about all of the 110% perfect procedures, how many procedures are done that you don't hear about? How many snakes are actually being killed while the surgery is being performed by a non-licensed hacker?
:::I know that this is never going to end. I have never outright bought a venomoid snake from someone who does the surgery. I have bought one though.
::Well, the snakes have to live somewhere after some non venomous keeper commissions one and then gets over his initial big thrill and becomes bored with his "pet" cobra. They might as well live with an experienced venomous keeper. As long as you aren't directly commissioning or financially supporting the operation, I don't have a problem with people simply owning venomoids, especially if they are well treated and used for education. There are certainly a lot of them out there and while I wish people would stop making them, they do need to go somewhere.
::: I have had HOTS for ten yrs. and I very rarely hook and tail them. I use trap boxes, so mine are almost never touched. Since you handle your snakes routinly I envy you. I will not put that kind of stress on mine though.
::I use trap boxes for some species, depending on how they react to being tailed. My primary consideration is always the health and comfort of the animal. For some species, hooking and tailing is definitely comfortable for them. For other species and even for some individual snakes, being tailed seems to be quite stressful. I avoid stressing those particular animals.
::One thing I have noticed about my technique as compared to most other people I observe is that I tend to keep a very loose, gentle grip with minimal compression and am always willing to calmly let go of a snake that struggles. Generally I just drop it right on my hook, or on the table, and then calmly pick it back up again in an even less restraining way. When tailing viperids I have to support a lot of their body weight with my hand, but when tailing elapids my hand might not even be closed, or might be so gently closed that the snake could slip a bit if it wants. When the snake tugs hard enough to signify that it really wants to move, I let it shift around as it prefers, and smoothly get another grip. The end result of this little dance is that my hook and my hand shift position to match the safe points on the snake, and the snake gets to move pretty much how it likes.
::Basically when I hook and tail a snake, I'm acting a bit like a mobile tree for them. There is little or no restraint. It is truly not stressful for most species. Mambas are really easy to do this way because they are very comfortable having an arboreal perch. I have a bit of trouble with my big kings because they are more than twice as long as I am tall and I have difficulty following their movements well enough to tail them in a way that is totally comfortable for them. Also they're stress puppies, and they can get quite serious about trying to bite me. So for them I normally haul out the Pro Bagger or use trap boxes.
::None of this stuff is really hard. I'm just a little old lady with bad knees and glasses, and anything I can do, I am sure that stronger, faster, taller people with better vision and reflexes can far surpass me in.
:::As for the comparing Venomoids to a lion I think you are really off base. I know that there are alot of house cats(not LIONS) who have been declawed just so they dont tear up the furniture,it had nothing to do with life or death, just the material things that so many of US in the world HAVE to have.
::Declawing a cat is actually an amputation of the first knuckle, and there are fairly serious behavioral effects on the animal. I don't approve of the practice. Removing the venom glands is an even more invasive operation. I think that when the things you HAVE to have include deliberately crippled animals, you might want to re-think your priorities and ethics.
:::I think that if any of you had REAL proof that these surgeries were done with playdough and ace hardware tools then the people that do it would already be in jail or fined.
::Go here: http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/55
::"At this facility, a small platform is fashioned out of modeling clay, and four small arms are used to "strap" patents onto this platform (Fig. 3)."
::"Q-tips are used to swab excess bleeding from the area during the operation, and sometimes a butane solder-gun is used to cauterize veins if needed to help stop bleeding."
::The colored clay in the photograph looks a lot like Playdough or a similar brand of children's modelling clay. The butane solder gun in another photograph is definitely an Ace Hardware type product.
::Good enough proof for you yet?