Welcome back, LUCKY man.... ;-)

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Venomous Snake Forum ]

Posted by WW on September 20, 2001 at 05:28:18:

In Reply to: Re: Immunity or luck? posted by Tim Friede on September 19, 2001 at 13:35:04:

: Hey WW, no worries on "having a go at me", thanks for the comments. First off, I have already given myself about 75 migs on haje and kaouthia, over twice the human LD, about .5cc. The edema in these bites was horrific and was much worse then any injection I ever gave myself,and yes, I took pics. I walked away with only 6 vials, that's 4 fangs very deep, that ain't no LUCK. I could have left in 36h, but stayed longer. The first bite(kaouthia), 2 fangs, didn't even phase me and the swelling on that arm looked like a atrox bite.

Tim,

First, let me say what I should have said in my last e-mail, namely that I can't tell you how glad I am that it worked out and that you are OK, you mad guy! I am equally glad that I did not take initial press reports at face value and shot my mouth off before having more of the facts.

Regarding your points here - I still don't think your experience proves much. Naja kaouthia bites are very variable, some cause major local tissue damage without systemic symptoms, but the opposite occurs as well - the fact that you had a lot of swelling does not necessarily mean that you got a huge amount of venom, or that you would necessarily have developed systemic effects from that bite.

The delay between the bites and the onset of symptoms is again not all that unusual. A colleague who shall remain nameless was bitten by a Sri Lankan Naja naja, and suffered no effects until 30 hours later, when ptosis set in. Fortunately, he did not suffer severe effects and recovered uneventfully.

Your self-immunization may or may not have made a difference to the outcome of your bites - the fact is that we will never know. A sample size of one, using an unknown quantity of venom, will never tell us much.

All the best,

Wolfgang

: Klaus, thank-you for the response. My serum is being studied at CSU and in Japan, by a well known biochemist. Thanks for the concern.

: Was I drinking? Yes, I had a couple beers before I conducted this experiment. I also didn't follow my protocol and was working with someone who has just started working with me. Why didn't I follow my protocol? I drifted away from what I preach protocol wise, because of my confidence in immunity and that was a bad mistake, which I apologize for. I still have the same protocol, but now I just need to fix some things.

: The number of snakes that was reported is accurate, my lab is uder construction and 150 of my snakes are gone due to this. You can see this in the pics I took for the media if you have today's paper(the big hole in my ceiling). The snake in the pic is kaouthia, the first bite I got, I'm milking it for the camera. I let that snake tag me at about 9:30 and he hit me super hard, both fangs, and a strong chew. He got me in the right deltoid and really hung on. I have pics. I continued to work and felt like a million bucks, although I had a great deal of blood coming out of my arm. This is my 5TH Naja self induced hit, if I remember correctly. About one hour later, I decided to take a hit from my wc haje, a true mean beast. He got me hard on the left finger, in which case, blood also came pouring out.I also received 2 fangs, one was really deep and also have pics. This is my 6TH Naja self-induced bite. Here I sit, with four fangs inside of me and I continued to work cleaning cages. I still felt great, with no effects other then some RIPPER pain. I then slowly and calmly walked into my front room and put in a movie and cracked a beer. Over 2 hours later I was right as rain, walkin and talkin. The effects hit a while after I thought I was fine, I took too much venom. I started to feel the effects and they hit like a frieght train, I went from fine, to dead, faster then sh!t. My friend flipped and called 911. My AV and my protocol were right next to him, he froze. This is my fault and not his, I failed to do my job and pushed the limits with myself and him. From here it was a complete circus, my DOC was never called, my protocol was left at home and my AV was left at home, my wife had to go back and get it. The hosp did a great job though and I thank them for that. I was on life support, but all hearing was very acute and I heard everything. One chap said, " I think he's dead, he looks dead", and I said " NO, I feel great, just give me some AV". I took 6 vials and could have left Fri. The edema was horrific on both arms, worse then I ever had and I still have pain in both areas. I thought I was going to lose my left finger, it was really bad looking. The worst pain was when I woke up, I could feel every motor neuron on fire and felt like someone just beat the sh!t out of me. In closing, thank-you for the support, it meant a great deal to me and my family. I read every thread over the weekend, the good and the bad. A special thanks to Sean P, MsTT, Al Cruz, my DOC, the hosp staff, my wife and family, Kingcobra fan and everyone else who posted in my behalf, I read them all. To the people who chose to say they lost their disrespect for me after reading that article, I want you to step forward and speak, don't talk about me when I dying!!!! I know who you are. I will continue to self-immunize and I will continue to milk my snakes, I already have. My wife won't let me stop and I won't, even in death. I WILL make a difference with this mission, I don't do it for the wrong reasons, I just pushed it to the max and I learned. I will take all comments,good and bad. Thanks for listening, Tim

Follow Ups:

Post a Followup

Name:
E-Mail:

Subject:

Comments:
: : Hey WW, no worries on "having a go at me", thanks for the comments. First off, I have already given myself about 75 migs on haje and kaouthia, over twice the human LD, about .5cc. The edema in these bites was horrific and was much worse then any injection I ever gave myself,and yes, I took pics. I walked away with only 6 vials, that's 4 fangs very deep, that ain't no LUCK. I could have left in 36h, but stayed longer. The first bite(kaouthia), 2 fangs, didn't even phase me and the swelling on that arm looked like a atrox bite. : Tim, : First, let me say what I should have said in my last e-mail, namely that I can't tell you how glad I am that it worked out and that you are OK, you mad guy! I am equally glad that I did not take initial press reports at face value and shot my mouth off before having more of the facts. : Regarding your points here - I still don't think your experience proves much. Naja kaouthia bites are very variable, some cause major local tissue damage without systemic symptoms, but the opposite occurs as well - the fact that you had a lot of swelling does not necessarily mean that you got a huge amount of venom, or that you would necessarily have developed systemic effects from that bite. : The delay between the bites and the onset of symptoms is again not all that unusual. A colleague who shall remain nameless was bitten by a Sri Lankan Naja naja, and suffered no effects until 30 hours later, when ptosis set in. Fortunately, he did not suffer severe effects and recovered uneventfully. : Your self-immunization may or may not have made a difference to the outcome of your bites - the fact is that we will never know. A sample size of one, using an unknown quantity of venom, will never tell us much. : All the best, : Wolfgang : : : Klaus, thank-you for the response. My serum is being studied at CSU and in Japan, by a well known biochemist. Thanks for the concern. : : Was I drinking? Yes, I had a couple beers before I conducted this experiment. I also didn't follow my protocol and was working with someone who has just started working with me. Why didn't I follow my protocol? I drifted away from what I preach protocol wise, because of my confidence in immunity and that was a bad mistake, which I apologize for. I still have the same protocol, but now I just need to fix some things. : : The number of snakes that was reported is accurate, my lab is uder construction and 150 of my snakes are gone due to this. You can see this in the pics I took for the media if you have today's paper(the big hole in my ceiling). The snake in the pic is kaouthia, the first bite I got, I'm milking it for the camera. I let that snake tag me at about 9:30 and he hit me super hard, both fangs, and a strong chew. He got me in the right deltoid and really hung on. I have pics. I continued to work and felt like a million bucks, although I had a great deal of blood coming out of my arm. This is my 5TH Naja self induced hit, if I remember correctly. About one hour later, I decided to take a hit from my wc haje, a true mean beast. He got me hard on the left finger, in which case, blood also came pouring out.I also received 2 fangs, one was really deep and also have pics. This is my 6TH Naja self-induced bite. Here I sit, with four fangs inside of me and I continued to work cleaning cages. I still felt great, with no effects other then some RIPPER pain. I then slowly and calmly walked into my front room and put in a movie and cracked a beer. Over 2 hours later I was right as rain, walkin and talkin. The effects hit a while after I thought I was fine, I took too much venom. I started to feel the effects and they hit like a frieght train, I went from fine, to dead, faster then sh!t. My friend flipped and called 911. My AV and my protocol were right next to him, he froze. This is my fault and not his, I failed to do my job and pushed the limits with myself and him. From here it was a complete circus, my DOC was never called, my protocol was left at home and my AV was left at home, my wife had to go back and get it. The hosp did a great job though and I thank them for that. I was on life support, but all hearing was very acute and I heard everything. One chap said, " I think he's dead, he looks dead", and I said " NO, I feel great, just give me some AV". I took 6 vials and could have left Fri. The edema was horrific on both arms, worse then I ever had and I still have pain in both areas. I thought I was going to lose my left finger, it was really bad looking. The worst pain was when I woke up, I could feel every motor neuron on fire and felt like someone just beat the sh!t out of me. In closing, thank-you for the support, it meant a great deal to me and my family. I read every thread over the weekend, the good and the bad. A special thanks to Sean P, MsTT, Al Cruz, my DOC, the hosp staff, my wife and family, Kingcobra fan and everyone else who posted in my behalf, I read them all. To the people who chose to say they lost their disrespect for me after reading that article, I want you to step forward and speak, don't talk about me when I dying!!!! I know who you are. I will continue to self-immunize and I will continue to milk my snakes, I already have. My wife won't let me stop and I won't, even in death. I WILL make a difference with this mission, I don't do it for the wrong reasons, I just pushed it to the max and I learned. I will take all comments,good and bad. Thanks for listening, Tim

Optional Link URL:
Link Title:
Optional Image URL:

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Venomous Snake Forum ]