You have a very good nose,Jaf,All I have,or need,to say.np

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Posted by Diana B on July 12, 2001 at 14:28:05:

In Reply to: Confused ingrate looking for a fight... posted by Jaffo on July 12, 2001 at 14:10:34:

: " What started this was Patrick deciding that I was a Waco cult leader because I held Native spiritual beliefs about animals and kinship."

: >>> That should have been pretty embarassing for Patrick, given the fact that Koresh actually claimed to be Christ. Did you know that different tribes ferociously killed in wars with other tribes over territory, slaves, etc...? The big stupid white tribe from another land was just more powerful. Humans are all the same when it comes down to it, there's just too damn many of them anymore.

: " I pointed out that it is not nice to scoff at other people's beliefs because they seem strange to you. Also that you will find significantly more incitements to war and violence in the Christian Bible than in the nature religions."

: >>> Well, I have read the bible a few times, and not only are there incidents of war and killing, but at least half of it dedicated to what is described as a loving god. You can't just pick and choose what you want and pretend there wasn't more. I'm not advertising anything, just stating that taking a biased, outsiders stance on anything will lead to misunderstanding and ignorance, which I think you are noticing from our Christian friends here. Both sides are guilty of talking more than listening, and making judgements about the religion of another when they don't fully understand. Your view of Christianity isn't any different that any other secular mindset, except that you take issue with only a couple key points and then show a very miniscule understanding of the bible and it's purpose. I don't see your point having any more weight that these Christians.

: " I am not interested in criticizing Mr. Burton's personal, modern faith, but it would be foolish to deny the historical evidence. Paganfolk and Natives are not the aggressive conquerors and not the ones likely to get violent or try to take control of other people's lives."

: >>> It was not a Christian thing to do. But there was a lot of things that were done back then that people don't do any more. Native people used to only live an average of 35 years because of disease. How old are you? You are pis$ed about the way this country was founded, yet you sit there in your dwelling taking advantage of the freedom that is here for us all, and thankless at that. It always bugs me when a minority whines about how oppressing the white man is while they sit there enjoying emenities they wouldn't have if it weren't for what happened in history. You don't live like a native, so quit acting like you are one. If society is too much for you, move into a cave and stay off the computers and out of the "natural" venom lab setting you work in. I'm sure your ancestors would have problem with your hypocricy.

: " Snakes are a better topic than religion, but I'm pretty well stocked with material and references too if a Fundie really wants to party."

: >>> Party on. I don't give a rat's posterior.

: " Well, we "primitive" peoples don't have a problem leaving others to believe what they want to believe. "

: >>> First of all, there is nothing "primitive" about typing all your BS on a PC, and you are far from any "natives" I have befriended in the past. Second, if you were to be representative of a "primitive" who allows others to belive what they want, then you are forgetting your crazy vendetta with the venomoid crowd.

: "We just don't want them to make a mess of the air we have to breathe and the land we have to live on. Dale is one of the genuine good guys arguing for conservation, but he seems to be in the minority in his culture."

: >>>>You think he's a minority because you haven't a clue. You are too busy being an activist. Who are "we"? You and the Native Americans? You and the rest of the Wiccan organization? I'm confused. While I hold a deep respect for many N.A. ways, I know who I am and how I live. I make no misrepresentations of my motives as a naturalist. I am much like a Wiccan in my beliefs and respect I suppose, bu I am having an issue with the way you try to portray yourself as an oppressed minority living in a corrupt white man's world. Get out then.

: " We nature worshippers have got a couple of thousand more, and our history doesn't include tramping all over the globe, slaughtering and enslaving Native peoples and selling off their land."

: >>> Actually, if you worship nature, it has been around a lot longer than that-- but I think you know that. Native people had native slaves from other tribes. Yes it was their land and they had a more harmonious way of life. So go live in a field you ingrate.

: "You keep making these predictions based on what you think you know about me. So far your batting average isn't so good."

: >>> Actually, it's been pretty good. It all depends on your perception.

: "If you want to learn about the Wiccan religion, there's about a zillion pages on the Net, and plenty of books. For better or worse, it's a highly chaotic and decentralized faith with about as many interpretations as people. We like it that way, but it can be somewhat confusing to outsiders."

: >>> Thanks. I'm sure I can handle it.

: "If you actually want to experience the Wiccan religion, go to some wild and beautiful place and walk for awhile in peace. The Goddess is there. Whether or not you want to seek Her is up to you. We don't mind either way, as long as you don't litter in Her cathedrals."

: >>> Can I take a dump in front of the pews in Her cathedral? The bears do it.
: I have spent half of my life deep in wild and beautiful natural places smelling the air and recognizing harmony as it should be. Was that Her? I have sat in one place on a hillside miles from any rado, cars, phones, radios, snake hooks, cages, venom labs, sunglasses, PCs, Macs, science, God, religions, hypocrits, cathedrals, or MsTTs, and I have felt the whisper of ancient beings brush across by face. Yet I haven't lost my ability to LISTEN to my species. A basic understanding of human behavior and psychology explains much of our conflict here.

: Same regards,
: Jaffo

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: : " What started this was Patrick deciding that I was a Waco cult leader because I held Native spiritual beliefs about animals and kinship." : : >>> That should have been pretty embarassing for Patrick, given the fact that Koresh actually claimed to be Christ. Did you know that different tribes ferociously killed in wars with other tribes over territory, slaves, etc...? The big stupid white tribe from another land was just more powerful. Humans are all the same when it comes down to it, there's just too damn many of them anymore. : : " I pointed out that it is not nice to scoff at other people's beliefs because they seem strange to you. Also that you will find significantly more incitements to war and violence in the Christian Bible than in the nature religions." : : >>> Well, I have read the bible a few times, and not only are there incidents of war and killing, but at least half of it dedicated to what is described as a loving god. You can't just pick and choose what you want and pretend there wasn't more. I'm not advertising anything, just stating that taking a biased, outsiders stance on anything will lead to misunderstanding and ignorance, which I think you are noticing from our Christian friends here. Both sides are guilty of talking more than listening, and making judgements about the religion of another when they don't fully understand. Your view of Christianity isn't any different that any other secular mindset, except that you take issue with only a couple key points and then show a very miniscule understanding of the bible and it's purpose. I don't see your point having any more weight that these Christians. : : " I am not interested in criticizing Mr. Burton's personal, modern faith, but it would be foolish to deny the historical evidence. Paganfolk and Natives are not the aggressive conquerors and not the ones likely to get violent or try to take control of other people's lives." : : >>> It was not a Christian thing to do. But there was a lot of things that were done back then that people don't do any more. Native people used to only live an average of 35 years because of disease. How old are you? You are pis$ed about the way this country was founded, yet you sit there in your dwelling taking advantage of the freedom that is here for us all, and thankless at that. It always bugs me when a minority whines about how oppressing the white man is while they sit there enjoying emenities they wouldn't have if it weren't for what happened in history. You don't live like a native, so quit acting like you are one. If society is too much for you, move into a cave and stay off the computers and out of the "natural" venom lab setting you work in. I'm sure your ancestors would have problem with your hypocricy. : : " Snakes are a better topic than religion, but I'm pretty well stocked with material and references too if a Fundie really wants to party." : : >>> Party on. I don't give a rat's posterior. : : " Well, we "primitive" peoples don't have a problem leaving others to believe what they want to believe. " : : >>> First of all, there is nothing "primitive" about typing all your BS on a PC, and you are far from any "natives" I have befriended in the past. Second, if you were to be representative of a "primitive" who allows others to belive what they want, then you are forgetting your crazy vendetta with the venomoid crowd. : : "We just don't want them to make a mess of the air we have to breathe and the land we have to live on. Dale is one of the genuine good guys arguing for conservation, but he seems to be in the minority in his culture." : : >>>>You think he's a minority because you haven't a clue. You are too busy being an activist. Who are "we"? You and the Native Americans? You and the rest of the Wiccan organization? I'm confused. While I hold a deep respect for many N.A. ways, I know who I am and how I live. I make no misrepresentations of my motives as a naturalist. I am much like a Wiccan in my beliefs and respect I suppose, bu I am having an issue with the way you try to portray yourself as an oppressed minority living in a corrupt white man's world. Get out then. : : " We nature worshippers have got a couple of thousand more, and our history doesn't include tramping all over the globe, slaughtering and enslaving Native peoples and selling off their land." : : >>> Actually, if you worship nature, it has been around a lot longer than that-- but I think you know that. Native people had native slaves from other tribes. Yes it was their land and they had a more harmonious way of life. So go live in a field you ingrate. : : "You keep making these predictions based on what you think you know about me. So far your batting average isn't so good." : : >>> Actually, it's been pretty good. It all depends on your perception. : : "If you want to learn about the Wiccan religion, there's about a zillion pages on the Net, and plenty of books. For better or worse, it's a highly chaotic and decentralized faith with about as many interpretations as people. We like it that way, but it can be somewhat confusing to outsiders." : : >>> Thanks. I'm sure I can handle it. : : "If you actually want to experience the Wiccan religion, go to some wild and beautiful place and walk for awhile in peace. The Goddess is there. Whether or not you want to seek Her is up to you. We don't mind either way, as long as you don't litter in Her cathedrals." : : >>> Can I take a dump in front of the pews in Her cathedral? The bears do it. : : I have spent half of my life deep in wild and beautiful natural places smelling the air and recognizing harmony as it should be. Was that Her? I have sat in one place on a hillside miles from any rado, cars, phones, radios, snake hooks, cages, venom labs, sunglasses, PCs, Macs, science, God, religions, hypocrits, cathedrals, or MsTTs, and I have felt the whisper of ancient beings brush across by face. Yet I haven't lost my ability to LISTEN to my species. A basic understanding of human behavior and psychology explains much of our conflict here. : : Same regards, : : Jaffo

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