Not Christ, but Christians and culture.

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Posted by MsTT on July 12, 2001 at 00:08:09:

In Reply to: Must you trash my faith in Christ!? posted by Dale Burton on July 11, 2001 at 20:33:39:

: : Take a close look at Christian values and mythology and tell me that they are not seriously scary. You can find justification for genocide, rape, slavery, torture and religious terrorism in the Bible. Such beliefs are far more likely to lead to violence than an older and gentler spiritual tradition of kinship with animals and respect for the earth.

: You don't even know what you are talking about let alone understanding the Bible because it is no more than foolishness to you.

I never said that your faith was foolish, only that it has cultural values that include owning the land and reshaping it to meet human needs. These beliefs have caused major problems, as you well know.

You cannot deny the savage and bloody history that is written in your own Old Testament. But you can have a faith that is living and real. I do not scoff at anyone else's faith just because it seems strange to me as an outsider. But I may point out some consequences of the cultural attitudes that have come along with your religion.

: Not once have I ever made a snide remark about your Wicca religion

No, that was somebody else who compared me to David Koresh because I hold to the Native belief that we are spiritually kin to animals.

: While you're at it, you can scoff at our Founding Fathers of this Great Nation since they were strong men of faith. Trash our Declaration of Independence since my Creator gave me certain enalienable rights.

You mean the arrogant jerks who started the process of trashing this continent and slaughtering the Native Americans who were here first? Don't forget that the Declaration of Independence that you are so proud of did not apply to Natives, to women, to Blacks or to anybody but White Christian males. I wouldn't be so proud of those folks if I were you.

: This Nation was founded on Faith in God and freedom of religion. War veterans fought and died so you could have the freedoms that are paid for in blood, and in return you trash and bring out the worst in mankind.

Excuse me, but this nation was founded in blood and the worst kind of betrayal. There was already a Nation here. Those "strong men of faith" killed them and took over the place. Then they trashed it. Nice going.

: I love animals as much as you do, but by the Word of God, we are to care wisely for our earth.

Would you mind telling the rest of the Christians that? I don't think many of them have been listening. The cultural values that are accepted by the dominant Judeo-Christian society have to do with dominating, conquering and reshaping the earth to fit human needs. This is the problem I have with Christianity - not the faith, but the attitude that they own the earth and can do what they want with it, slaughter the Native people and animals, etc.

To us Paganfolk, the Earth is our Mother, and we take care not to hurt Her. The animals are our brothers and sisters, and we choose to live among them in peace, killing only when we need food and shelter and clothing. We are not conquerors. We don't want you to bow down before us, or adopt our beliefs and lifestyle unless you really want to. It's okay for you to believe different things and live in a different way, as long as you don't make messes that other people have to clean up. This is not a mindset that tends to lead to war and violence. To find that, you will have to look at your own history.

Regards,

MsTT

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: : : Take a close look at Christian values and mythology and tell me that they are not seriously scary. You can find justification for genocide, rape, slavery, torture and religious terrorism in the Bible. Such beliefs are far more likely to lead to violence than an older and gentler spiritual tradition of kinship with animals and respect for the earth. : : : You don't even know what you are talking about let alone understanding the Bible because it is no more than foolishness to you. : I never said that your faith was foolish, only that it has cultural values that include owning the land and reshaping it to meet human needs. These beliefs have caused major problems, as you well know. : You cannot deny the savage and bloody history that is written in your own Old Testament. But you can have a faith that is living and real. I do not scoff at anyone else's faith just because it seems strange to me as an outsider. But I may point out some consequences of the cultural attitudes that have come along with your religion. : : : Not once have I ever made a snide remark about your Wicca religion : No, that was somebody else who compared me to David Koresh because I hold to the Native belief that we are spiritually kin to animals. : : : While you're at it, you can scoff at our Founding Fathers of this Great Nation since they were strong men of faith. Trash our Declaration of Independence since my Creator gave me certain enalienable rights. : You mean the arrogant jerks who started the process of trashing this continent and slaughtering the Native Americans who were here first? Don't forget that the Declaration of Independence that you are so proud of did not apply to Natives, to women, to Blacks or to anybody but White Christian males. I wouldn't be so proud of those folks if I were you. : : : This Nation was founded on Faith in God and freedom of religion. War veterans fought and died so you could have the freedoms that are paid for in blood, and in return you trash and bring out the worst in mankind. : Excuse me, but this nation was founded in blood and the worst kind of betrayal. There was already a Nation here. Those "strong men of faith" killed them and took over the place. Then they trashed it. Nice going. : : : I love animals as much as you do, but by the Word of God, we are to care wisely for our earth. : Would you mind telling the rest of the Christians that? I don't think many of them have been listening. The cultural values that are accepted by the dominant Judeo-Christian society have to do with dominating, conquering and reshaping the earth to fit human needs. This is the problem I have with Christianity - not the faith, but the attitude that they own the earth and can do what they want with it, slaughter the Native people and animals, etc. : To us Paganfolk, the Earth is our Mother, and we take care not to hurt Her. The animals are our brothers and sisters, and we choose to live among them in peace, killing only when we need food and shelter and clothing. We are not conquerors. We don't want you to bow down before us, or adopt our beliefs and lifestyle unless you really want to. It's okay for you to believe different things and live in a different way, as long as you don't make messes that other people have to clean up. This is not a mindset that tends to lead to war and violence. To find that, you will have to look at your own history. : Regards, : MsTT

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