Hallucinogenic properties of venom - it's secondary to the trauma

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Venomous Reptile Forum ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by MsTT on June 28, 2000 at 22:02:06:

In Reply to: For some strange reason.... posted by Joe on June 28, 2000 at 12:41:19:

: as screwed up as(some)kids are these days, this doesn't really surprise me. Aren't many snake venoms rather hallucinogenic in their effects when injected? I remember reading accounts of the wild psychedelic rides people have experienced as a result of snakebite.

I'm not particularly opposed to the recreational use of drugs, though I do not often indulge in them myself. I don't agree with the arbitrary taboos this society has imposed on a fairly harmless drug (marijuana) and the open sales of a more harmful, addictive and accident-causing drug (alcohol). Caffiene, which is not only readily available but difficult to avoid in popular soft drinks, is certainly a drug and can have marked behavioral effects particularly on children. Yet it is completely unregulated. Listen to scientists, not to the government which has its own agenda, when you make your decisions as to what substances actually belong in the category of "dangerous drugs your children should avoid". Education and real scientific facts are better than propaganda and lies.

This isn't to say that any drugs are completely harmless, and this includes the socially approved ones (alcohol, caffiene, nicotine and even sugar). There are obvious consequences to taking substances that cloud your judgement and slow your reflexes. This is why I don't indulge even as far as two beers, and not even one beer until late evening. I have a lot of snakes at home, and there is no way I'm stepping into the hots room when I am operating at less than 100%. If you're going to use any substance to relax with, you had better be taking "time off" from your responsibilities, because you won't be able to perform them very well. My feeling is that otherwise responsible adults have the right to take some "time off" and enjoy their relaxation with whatever socially harmless substance they choose. It isn't a choice I'll personally make (I just know that if I ever broke down and had more than one beer, or puffed a joint, one of my snakes would take a big fat juicy crap in its waterbowl...) but I'll defend other people's right to make it. As long as they don't live with venomous snakes, anyways. My collection definitely keeps me on the clean and sober side. LOL

Taking too much "time off" to relax with the help of drugs (either socially approved ones or not) can be a problem. When a person uses chemicals to help them deal with life because they can't do it without these crutches, they have an addiction or a behavioral dependency. This is a problem in and of itself. Sometimes they use chemicals to avoid facing pain or seemingly insoluble problems they have in their lives. Sometimes the addiction has a physical component. Addiction is a problem, and there are generally underlying emotional issues that the substances are an escape from or a disguise for. Drugs are on the whole more good than evil, if you can really put value judgements on chemicals, since most of them can be used in beneficial ways for medicine. Some can be used for recreation, and some can be abused. The key word here is "abuse", and in order for it to be abuse, there has to be clear harm being done. Not just the violation of an arbitrary social taboo.

All this having been said, the notion of using snake venom to get high makes about as much sense as cutting your own throat so that you will get dizzy and hallucinate from loss of blood. This isn't an anti-drug sentiment, it's an anti-stupid sentiment. The only thing you could possibly accomplish by playing with venom is to f*** yourself up beyond belief. Hallucinations and euphoria reported subsequent to envenomations are not a direct consequence of the bite, but a secondary result of the massive trauma and shock inflicted to your body. You can get the same results from being in a bad car wreck. Your blood pressure drops catastrophically, you go into shock, you get dizzy and euphoric, you see God, and your leg is missing at the knee. That's what you get in a severe envenomation, too. Circulatory collapse has a way of accomplishing that sort of thing.

If your kids want to fool around and smoke some joints now and then to be cool (and to relax; this society puts a lot of pressure on teens), I personally don't think you have a huge problem if the rest of their lives are in order and they are responsible about their schoolwork and jobs. On the other hand if they are not responsible about their "relaxing time" and seperating it from work time, they could have a drug problem. Or more accurately a maturity problem. A lot of adults have this one too. On the other hand, if they are fooling around with snake venom with the thought that it will get them high, they are utter boneheads on a useless suicide mission that will get them (at best) unpleasant allergies and hay fever symptoms, and at worst a trip to the hospital or the morgue. I'm tempted to advise you to let them remove themselves from the gene pool and start over with smarter offspring that won't harrass snakes for foolish reasons, but since you probably have some emotional investment in these kids, you should just print out this thread and hand it to them.

Yes, you. I'm talking to you. This is not your mother speaking. If you really want to become a fascinating clinical case history that will be emailed around the venom forums and laughed at a lot, please go right ahead with your project. I'll be looking forward to it. You won't be. You will make the Darwin Awards website and become very famous. This is guaranteed to really, really suck.

Mom's turn now. Is it possible that your kids don't use drugs, aren't even thinking about using drugs, and you're overreacting? Could be. If so, get help. Unwarranted mistrust is not good for kids. Unless you have reason to believe your kids are awesomely, awesomely stupid, they are probably not experimenting with snake venom to get high. If you do have reason to believe your kids are this stupid, you all need help. Sorry to be blunt, but those are the facts.

I'm not even going to address the issues of teenagers owning venomous snakes. I don't know these people or their maturity level. A few people are mature enough to own venomous snakes at 18. Others aren't mature enough at 40, and will never be mature enough. It's a committment that can kill you. If you're in it for the wrong reasons, or if you lose your focus for a split second, you can be maimed or killed.

At a minimum, I'd suggest he should pay his own medical insurance that will cover antivenom and emergency treatment, and written protocols should be in place with the local emergency room before the snakes are brought home. If he can do that, as well as fulfill the legal requirements in your state, he's at least marginally prepared. Keep in mind that if he screws up and he doesn't have the insurance in place, you are probably the one who will suffer financially (bites can run from $30,000 to over $100,000). So exercise reasonable discretion.

Regards,

MsTT

Follow Ups:

Post a Followup

Name:
E-Mail:

Subject:

Comments:
: : as screwed up as(some)kids are these days, this doesn't really surprise me. Aren't many snake venoms rather hallucinogenic in their effects when injected? I remember reading accounts of the wild psychedelic rides people have experienced as a result of snakebite. : I'm not particularly opposed to the recreational use of drugs, though I do not often indulge in them myself. I don't agree with the arbitrary taboos this society has imposed on a fairly harmless drug (marijuana) and the open sales of a more harmful, addictive and accident-causing drug (alcohol). Caffiene, which is not only readily available but difficult to avoid in popular soft drinks, is certainly a drug and can have marked behavioral effects particularly on children. Yet it is completely unregulated. Listen to scientists, not to the government which has its own agenda, when you make your decisions as to what substances actually belong in the category of "dangerous drugs your children should avoid". Education and real scientific facts are better than propaganda and lies. : This isn't to say that any drugs are completely harmless, and this includes the socially approved ones (alcohol, caffiene, nicotine and even sugar). There are obvious consequences to taking substances that cloud your judgement and slow your reflexes. This is why I don't indulge even as far as two beers, and not even one beer until late evening. I have a lot of snakes at home, and there is no way I'm stepping into the hots room when I am operating at less than 100%. If you're going to use any substance to relax with, you had better be taking "time off" from your responsibilities, because you won't be able to perform them very well. My feeling is that otherwise responsible adults have the right to take some "time off" and enjoy their relaxation with whatever socially harmless substance they choose. It isn't a choice I'll personally make (I just know that if I ever broke down and had more than one beer, or puffed a joint, one of my snakes would take a big fat juicy crap in its waterbowl...) but I'll defend other people's right to make it. As long as they don't live with venomous snakes, anyways. My collection definitely keeps me on the clean and sober side. LOL : Taking too much "time off" to relax with the help of drugs (either socially approved ones or not) can be a problem. When a person uses chemicals to help them deal with life because they can't do it without these crutches, they have an addiction or a behavioral dependency. This is a problem in and of itself. Sometimes they use chemicals to avoid facing pain or seemingly insoluble problems they have in their lives. Sometimes the addiction has a physical component. Addiction is a problem, and there are generally underlying emotional issues that the substances are an escape from or a disguise for. Drugs are on the whole more good than evil, if you can really put value judgements on chemicals, since most of them can be used in beneficial ways for medicine. Some can be used for recreation, and some can be abused. The key word here is "abuse", and in order for it to be abuse, there has to be clear harm being done. Not just the violation of an arbitrary social taboo. : All this having been said, the notion of using snake venom to get high makes about as much sense as cutting your own throat so that you will get dizzy and hallucinate from loss of blood. This isn't an anti-drug sentiment, it's an anti-stupid sentiment. The only thing you could possibly accomplish by playing with venom is to f*** yourself up beyond belief. Hallucinations and euphoria reported subsequent to envenomations are not a direct consequence of the bite, but a secondary result of the massive trauma and shock inflicted to your body. You can get the same results from being in a bad car wreck. Your blood pressure drops catastrophically, you go into shock, you get dizzy and euphoric, you see God, and your leg is missing at the knee. That's what you get in a severe envenomation, too. Circulatory collapse has a way of accomplishing that sort of thing. : If your kids want to fool around and smoke some joints now and then to be cool (and to relax; this society puts a lot of pressure on teens), I personally don't think you have a huge problem if the rest of their lives are in order and they are responsible about their schoolwork and jobs. On the other hand if they are not responsible about their "relaxing time" and seperating it from work time, they could have a drug problem. Or more accurately a maturity problem. A lot of adults have this one too. On the other hand, if they are fooling around with snake venom with the thought that it will get them high, they are utter boneheads on a useless suicide mission that will get them (at best) unpleasant allergies and hay fever symptoms, and at worst a trip to the hospital or the morgue. I'm tempted to advise you to let them remove themselves from the gene pool and start over with smarter offspring that won't harrass snakes for foolish reasons, but since you probably have some emotional investment in these kids, you should just print out this thread and hand it to them. : Yes, you. I'm talking to you. This is not your mother speaking. If you really want to become a fascinating clinical case history that will be emailed around the venom forums and laughed at a lot, please go right ahead with your project. I'll be looking forward to it. You won't be. You will make the Darwin Awards website and become very famous. This is guaranteed to really, really suck. : Mom's turn now. Is it possible that your kids don't use drugs, aren't even thinking about using drugs, and you're overreacting? Could be. If so, get help. Unwarranted mistrust is not good for kids. Unless you have reason to believe your kids are awesomely, awesomely stupid, they are probably not experimenting with snake venom to get high. If you do have reason to believe your kids are this stupid, you all need help. Sorry to be blunt, but those are the facts. : I'm not even going to address the issues of teenagers owning venomous snakes. I don't know these people or their maturity level. A few people are mature enough to own venomous snakes at 18. Others aren't mature enough at 40, and will never be mature enough. It's a committment that can kill you. If you're in it for the wrong reasons, or if you lose your focus for a split second, you can be maimed or killed. : At a minimum, I'd suggest he should pay his own medical insurance that will cover antivenom and emergency treatment, and written protocols should be in place with the local emergency room before the snakes are brought home. If he can do that, as well as fulfill the legal requirements in your state, he's at least marginally prepared. Keep in mind that if he screws up and he doesn't have the insurance in place, you are probably the one who will suffer financially (bites can run from $30,000 to over $100,000). So exercise reasonable discretion. : Regards, : MsTT :

Optional Link URL:
Link Title:
Optional Image URL:

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Venomous Reptile Forum ] [ FAQ ]