Re: Cypress update

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Posted by Brian-SFCRC on April 10, 2003 at 21:19:03:

In Reply to: Re: Cypress update posted by Jackie Lapradd on April 10, 2003 at 16:57:48:

Hello jackie,

I knew it! I knew it! right after I posted that last response I knew that one statement was going to come back to haunt me! I typed in unbridled haste and should have been more specific. I realize that due to budgets, time, room, etc. Despite what one would like to do, often it's a case of what one must do. In addition, of course, it depends on the type of animal (ie. a fossorial or subterranean animal such as a BTS or a sandfish- would definately need substrate) or if the animal is outdoors on the ground.

This topic originally started on choices for indoor tortoise situations- not outdoor. The SFCRC has the time and personnel others may not have to ensure the Tortoise enclosures are kept clean. No substrate is used in the outdoor facility and we have had tortoises for many years without a single loss. when they must be housed indoors in rare colder weather, soft matting is used. It is easy to clean and protects the plastron. Especially if say one has a nice Geochelone paradalis babcocki with a nice spot-patterned plastron. I do agree with some of what you said earlier on a healthy tortoise being resistent but if it's consistent with their natural environment that is why we keep the tortoises that way because they are not native to S. Florida. But on the same note, I must admit some southern Floridians Keep (not sulcata's,Russian or Leopards) redfoots in outdoor ground enclosures with complete success. We have Florida Box Turtles (Terrepene carolina bauri) in outdoor ground enclosures because they are native here. If substrate must be used for them , Slash pine mulch or needles are used because this was the normal groundcover of the original Florida BD (before development). We have BTS here in additional to arborial species (Corucia zebrata and iguana iguana) the BTS have recieved sterilized unprinted sheaded newspaper. we have used aspen mulch (hate to use aspen due to the fact it's prickly and there still is the dust factor-it can cause pneumonic problems). Tiliqua unlike Chelonians do not defecate or urinate anywhere near as often so the emphasis on absorbency isn't as vital. We are currently using a soft plastic based material that can be cleaned and reused for them. however, we may explore other options.
Again, I didn't intend to sound like a 'know it all' or create a debate situation.

Thank you for pointing out my oversights and hope to chat with you again.

Sincerely,
Brian
SFCRC

:Brian,
:No offense was meant by my previous reply. I was simply trying to give an alternate side to the debate which others could use to base an opinion.
:You mentioned something about " why use bedding at all". If you don't use bedding what do you utilize in your enclosures? a bare floor of sealed wood or linoleum does not give the proper footing nor any absorbancy which would be necessary to prevent the animals from wallowing in their own excrement. I have heard of a few people that use the foam matting material that is used in public showers yet there is still the issue of somewhat ackward footing and no absorbancy. In order for either one of these methods to be effective one would have to have access to their tortoises several times a day to avoid having fecal matter or urine spread throughout the cage.
:I have racked my brain in the past trying to come up with a viable option to expensive manufactured bedding or organic material (mulch, dirt, etc.) but as of yet haven't figured out a suitable substitute.
:I would be very interested in learning more about your choice of materials such as brand name, price and place of purchase.

:Thanks
:Jackie

::Jackie,

::What you said is true. However one must bear in mind that many of the purchased substrates can come from Timbuktu. A wild chelonian has natural immunities from normal pathogens encountered in the wild. If it's from a different part of the world , it may not have the natural immunity to fight off the infection

::The key word you used is particularly. Again, if even a slight risk, why risk using this substrate or 'bedding' at all?

::At the SFCRC, We don't like to be in a situation of playing 'The Shell Game' with our charges whom we regard as kindred spirits.
::
::I didn't wish to provoke any bad feelings or step on anyone's toes. I respect your right to your opinion and I hope all goes well with your Chelonians.

::All the best,
::Brian
::SFCRC

:::Brian,
:::Hay is highly flammable as well as newspaper, Carefresh and any wooden bedding product. In addition virtually any bedding could have the potential to harbor unwanted and sometimes dangerous pathogens (especially when soiled or kept moist).
:::Keep in mind that in the wild Chelonians are subject to a vast array of viral, bacterial, fungal agents. It is usually only when the animals immune system becomes compromised that these pathogens become an issue.
:::Bottom line, The points you mentioned regarding using Cypress as a substrate were not particulary valid when compared with the majority of other material used for bedding.

:::Jackie

:::
::::Attention everyone,

::::I stand corrected, I misread the sender as stating cedar instead of Cypress.
::::HOWEVER, Cypress is risky: 1) It is highly flammable. 2). It carries Plasmodium falciparium. 3). It can cause Pollinosis.

::::Also Coca shells should not be used due to Theobromine present.

::::Sorry for the misread but still look into different substrates for the sake of your animals. Even if the risk is slight, WHY take the chance?????

::::Sincerely,
::::Brian
::::SFCRC

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