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Posted by Susan on January 10, 2002 at 14:51:53:

In Reply to: Re: Now this, this is substance. posted by Stuart McArthur on January 08, 2002 at 04:08:44:

:
: : My main point with mixing, is that the risk with either the same or different species mixing is dependant on the situation. Would it be more risky to mix a w.c. marginated with a captive bred one, or a c.b. marginated with a c.b. greek? Honestly I feel this type of question was the one that was being avoided.

: An excellent paper presented at ARAV at the end of last year (Sept) in Orlando, Florida, regarding carriage of mycoplasma and herpesvirus at the French conservation centre where there were several hundred Testudo sp of many types, suggested both situations were reasonably risky. This paper utilised Elliott Jacobsons diagnostic tests at Gainesville. It explored the prevalence in all Testudo sp. However using the results of screening tests it was clear that the risks could be minimised.

: *I think the population stucture of Testudo sp in USA is likely to be very different to that in UK. Probably to that in the study too. We (UK keepers)shamefully mixed millions of them together following wc in the'80's and then split them all up. Then after a period of bad weather and poor husbandry we have more recently started to mix them up again. The small percentage that we didnt kill off. We dont know what carries what anymore, be it captive bred or imported. Your population in USA is probably less diverse and less mixed.. but then who knows? We need some tests to find out. Like the paper described above!
: A lot will/may have mixed with whacky asiatic turtles and your own indigenous chelonian populations. Some of the earliest papers identifying herpes as a likely chelonian pathogen (Ones by Fry and Cox I think) described small groups of native North American Turtles with virus.This was a long time ago.. ? the 70's

: There just isnt a scale of riskiness without screening tests.!

: Recovered animals such as the mycoplasmosis cases to which you have referred, or animals with herpes, are still almost certainly infectious to others even though they may look normal. Herpes is for life. Mycoplasmosis probably for life. The period when carriers shed is not yet able to be defined and will relate to stresssssssors resulting in shedding+/- recrudescence and clinical signs. This could occur anytime. Like my wife and her flipping cold sore. Therefore you are indeed taking risks when expanding upon such a mixed collection as yours described. I am pleased that doing this mixing blind has not resulted in any problems for you. You need to wait a few years to be sure.

: Disease often worsen in severity when a species barrier is crossed. We know this too well in the UK. The BVZS Spring Meeting two years ago on Emerging diseases of wildlife and zoo amimals showed this again and again. Elephants and herpes being a classic example. Therefore regardless of cb or wc origin, it is possibly wise to keep same sp. with same sp. and different sp. on their own. At least the disease will be more predictable and if there were carriers about there is hope for recovery to such a state in newly infected individuals.

: A clear (negative) PCR for herpes or mycoplasmosis would be reassuring, if you want to mix, but this isnt a complete list of possible carried agents. Or to your mind is it?

: This form of molecular test will reduce disease risk associated with mixing if overall status of the receiving and donating collections are understood. These tests will soon be of huge importance with respect to allowing captive breeding programmes to exchange stock

: .. dont you think? Remember I didnt agree with you that they were dodgy.

: I think we may/will lose the reader soon. If there are any.

: Stuart

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: : : : : My main point with mixing, is that the risk with either the same or different species mixing is dependant on the situation. Would it be more risky to mix a w.c. marginated with a captive bred one, or a c.b. marginated with a c.b. greek? Honestly I feel this type of question was the one that was being avoided. : : An excellent paper presented at ARAV at the end of last year (Sept) in Orlando, Florida, regarding carriage of mycoplasma and herpesvirus at the French conservation centre where there were several hundred Testudo sp of many types, suggested both situations were reasonably risky. This paper utilised Elliott Jacobsons diagnostic tests at Gainesville. It explored the prevalence in all Testudo sp. However using the results of screening tests it was clear that the risks could be minimised. : : *I think the population stucture of Testudo sp in USA is likely to be very different to that in UK. Probably to that in the study too. We (UK keepers)shamefully mixed millions of them together following wc in the'80's and then split them all up. Then after a period of bad weather and poor husbandry we have more recently started to mix them up again. The small percentage that we didnt kill off. We dont know what carries what anymore, be it captive bred or imported. Your population in USA is probably less diverse and less mixed.. but then who knows? We need some tests to find out. Like the paper described above! : : A lot will/may have mixed with whacky asiatic turtles and your own indigenous chelonian populations. Some of the earliest papers identifying herpes as a likely chelonian pathogen (Ones by Fry and Cox I think) described small groups of native North American Turtles with virus.This was a long time ago.. ? the 70's : : There just isnt a scale of riskiness without screening tests.! : : Recovered animals such as the mycoplasmosis cases to which you have referred, or animals with herpes, are still almost certainly infectious to others even though they may look normal. Herpes is for life. Mycoplasmosis probably for life. The period when carriers shed is not yet able to be defined and will relate to stresssssssors resulting in shedding+/- recrudescence and clinical signs. This could occur anytime. Like my wife and her flipping cold sore. Therefore you are indeed taking risks when expanding upon such a mixed collection as yours described. I am pleased that doing this mixing blind has not resulted in any problems for you. You need to wait a few years to be sure. : : Disease often worsen in severity when a species barrier is crossed. We know this too well in the UK. The BVZS Spring Meeting two years ago on Emerging diseases of wildlife and zoo amimals showed this again and again. Elephants and herpes being a classic example. Therefore regardless of cb or wc origin, it is possibly wise to keep same sp. with same sp. and different sp. on their own. At least the disease will be more predictable and if there were carriers about there is hope for recovery to such a state in newly infected individuals. : : A clear (negative) PCR for herpes or mycoplasmosis would be reassuring, if you want to mix, but this isnt a complete list of possible carried agents. Or to your mind is it? : : This form of molecular test will reduce disease risk associated with mixing if overall status of the receiving and donating collections are understood. These tests will soon be of huge importance with respect to allowing captive breeding programmes to exchange stock : : .. dont you think? Remember I didnt agree with you that they were dodgy. : : I think we may/will lose the reader soon. If there are any. : : Stuart

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