Re: ...Then again & I'll second that opinion

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Posted by Ulf Edqvist on February 03, 1999 at 01:58:36:

In Reply to: Re: ...Then again & I'll second that opinion posted by graham on February 02, 1999 at 16:08:08:

: I'm in full agreement with you Tim, diversity is the key to life...
: breeders need a range of genes, not all from one source.
: No one disagrees that captive bred is best but where do they originate from....

Graham,

While I agree with you that it is important to have a diverse breeding stock in order to keep a species 'genetically healthy', I do not agree with the conclusion that further collection of wild tortoises is necessarily the best solution to this problem. It might be the cheapest and most simple solution, but the detrimental effects of commercial collection are frankly too large to be accepted.

I can think of very few species/subspecies where not enough specimens are already in captivity to ensure a healthy breeding stock for centuries to come, if only breeders took the responsibility and worked together to ensure that detrimental inbreeding does not occur. Generally, a group of 10 specimens from different 'genetic lines' will suffice to breed for many, many generations without any inbreeding suppression. I would love to hear from someone who argues that a certain species is not in captivity in large enough numbers - barring of course, those species that are too close to extinction anyway (as G. yniphora, certain pops of G. nigra, some Asian species.)

The 'genetic' argument is IMHO just a 'touched up' way for breeders/dealers to reason that they should be allowed to import more animals - there is no way that one could restrict the importation of WC animals to 'breeders', as if one tried to do just that, a lot of people would all of a sudden become 'breeders'. We will not be able to restrict the trade in wild caught animals if we continue to allow large-scale commercial importation of chelonians.

The best way for breeders to ensure that their livelyhood is not threathened would probably be to work for a total ban on WC imports in order to raise the demand for CB animals, thereby making it more economically rewarding to breed these animals. This would also provide an incitament for breeders to cooperate in order to maintain a 'genetically healthy' captive population.

Anyone dragging out the old 'gene-pool-argument' without having all and every animal registered in a studbook (either global or national) is simply not credible. If the genetical health of the captive population is that important, one should look at all possibilities, not just the cheapest and quickest ones.

I am not trying to start a fight here, simply giving my view on this argument, as it is always dragged up as soon as the WC/CB issue is discussed.

ULf

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Re: ...Then again & I'll second that opinion nathan 2/03/99 (0)

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: : I'm in full agreement with you Tim, diversity is the key to life... : : breeders need a range of genes, not all from one source. : : No one disagrees that captive bred is best but where do they originate from.... : Graham, : While I agree with you that it is important to have a diverse breeding stock in order to keep a species 'genetically healthy', I do not agree with the conclusion that further collection of wild tortoises is necessarily the best solution to this problem. It might be the cheapest and most simple solution, but the detrimental effects of commercial collection are frankly too large to be accepted. : I can think of very few species/subspecies where not enough specimens are already in captivity to ensure a healthy breeding stock for centuries to come, if only breeders took the responsibility and worked together to ensure that detrimental inbreeding does not occur. Generally, a group of 10 specimens from different 'genetic lines' will suffice to breed for many, many generations without any inbreeding suppression. I would love to hear from someone who argues that a certain species is not in captivity in large enough numbers - barring of course, those species that are too close to extinction anyway (as G. yniphora, certain pops of G. nigra, some Asian species.) : The 'genetic' argument is IMHO just a 'touched up' way for breeders/dealers to reason that they should be allowed to import more animals - there is no way that one could restrict the importation of WC animals to 'breeders', as if one tried to do just that, a lot of people would all of a sudden become 'breeders'. We will not be able to restrict the trade in wild caught animals if we continue to allow large-scale commercial importation of chelonians. : The best way for breeders to ensure that their livelyhood is not threathened would probably be to work for a total ban on WC imports in order to raise the demand for CB animals, thereby making it more economically rewarding to breed these animals. This would also provide an incitament for breeders to cooperate in order to maintain a 'genetically healthy' captive population. : Anyone dragging out the old 'gene-pool-argument' without having all and every animal registered in a studbook (either global or national) is simply not credible. If the genetical health of the captive population is that important, one should look at all possibilities, not just the cheapest and quickest ones. : I am not trying to start a fight here, simply giving my view on this argument, as it is always dragged up as soon as the WC/CB issue is discussed. : ULf

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