Yes it is....with pix.....Pic #1

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Posted by Annie Lancaster-TortoiseAid on October 19, 2001 at 18:50:18:

In Reply to: This is not contrary to what I'm saying. n/p posted by EJ on October 19, 2001 at 14:59:58:

: : : what really controls growth? The internal organs. If the internal organs are not properly developed it should not grow.

A tortoise will grow..even with compromised internal organs.

The tortoise who has a damaged liver and had the 1.3 pound bladder stone removed grew as smooth as glass but grew rapidly IMHO (I don't know HOW with the diet it was on) and his internal organs suffered..his insides look like a bomb went off in there. :-( His liver has damage...his bladder was nearly ruptured..and we have several more just like him awaiting surgery. (At least 25) They wil grow with dmamged organs...I am up to my arse in proof and will be for some time wi th the mess these animals are in...and yes, this case is being prosecuted.

Other tortoises impounded also grew..after being illegally captive bred, so we know that this started from day #1 they pipped. The tortoise in this photos os only SEVEN years old. Internal organs are a mess...but oh boy, did it grow :-(
I have 30 or 40 more tortoises here that look like this and worse.

Most of the torts here are HUGE for their ages, have VERY thin plastrons, have stones, MBD, the works. The internal organs ARE compromised, and IMHO and in the opinion of TortoiseAid's vet, these animals will have greatly REDUCED lifespans...they grew..but they didn't grow healthy or properly. I know the difference between CB badly raised DT's and wild ones...I spend a lot of time in the field tracking the wild kids for ongoing research in both the Western and Eastern Mojave...the differences in growth between CB and wild tortoises are incredible. It's taught me a lot...many ppl think I am cruel for the items I offer to them...but any babies that do end up here grow as smoothly...with no renal or other peoblems as wild tortoises do. LIterally cannot tell the difference. They eat her what they'd find out there...and nothing else.

: :
: : Well.....ya oughtta come on up and see the 51 impounded desert tortoises I have here all of whom are a MESS. Rapid growth....screwed up internal organs, and one male that just had a 1 POUND 3 OUNCE BLADDER stone removed. I have youngsters here who have grown...but on a BAD BAD diet...they are pyramided, have renal problems, have MBD, etc. etc. etc. A tortoise WILL grow on a bad diet...believe me. The tortoise who had the huge stone removed is as smooth as glass....and has been a captive tortoise for 27 years.

: : Regarding babies...I DO hibernate them the first year, I have never lost a hatchling or juvenile in hibernation. If you look at the life cycle of G. agassizii in the wild...they're prepared for it, and tortoises have been living (not struggling) and doing a pretty good job of it all by themselves for thousands of years out here.

: : Annie

Follow Ups:

No it's not... EJ 10/20/01 (0)
Pic #2...Healthy WILD tortoise Annie Lancaster-TortoiseAid 10/19/01 (0)

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: : : : what really controls growth? The internal organs. If the internal organs are not properly developed it should not grow. : A tortoise will grow..even with compromised internal organs. : The tortoise who has a damaged liver and had the 1.3 pound bladder stone removed grew as smooth as glass but grew rapidly IMHO (I don't know HOW with the diet it was on) and his internal organs suffered..his insides look like a bomb went off in there. :-( His liver has damage...his bladder was nearly ruptured..and we have several more just like him awaiting surgery. (At least 25) They wil grow with dmamged organs...I am up to my arse in proof and will be for some time wi th the mess these animals are in...and yes, this case is being prosecuted. : Other tortoises impounded also grew..after being illegally captive bred, so we know that this started from day #1 they pipped. The tortoise in this photos os only SEVEN years old. Internal organs are a mess...but oh boy, did it grow :-( : I have 30 or 40 more tortoises here that look like this and worse. : Most of the torts here are HUGE for their ages, have VERY thin plastrons, have stones, MBD, the works. The internal organs ARE compromised, and IMHO and in the opinion of TortoiseAid's vet, these animals will have greatly REDUCED lifespans...they grew..but they didn't grow healthy or properly. I know the difference between CB badly raised DT's and wild ones...I spend a lot of time in the field tracking the wild kids for ongoing research in both the Western and Eastern Mojave...the differences in growth between CB and wild tortoises are incredible. It's taught me a lot...many ppl think I am cruel for the items I offer to them...but any babies that do end up here grow as smoothly...with no renal or other peoblems as wild tortoises do. LIterally cannot tell the difference. They eat her what they'd find out there...and nothing else. : : : : : : : : Well.....ya oughtta come on up and see the 51 impounded desert tortoises I have here all of whom are a MESS. Rapid growth....screwed up internal organs, and one male that just had a 1 POUND 3 OUNCE BLADDER stone removed. I have youngsters here who have grown...but on a BAD BAD diet...they are pyramided, have renal problems, have MBD, etc. etc. etc. A tortoise WILL grow on a bad diet...believe me. The tortoise who had the huge stone removed is as smooth as glass....and has been a captive tortoise for 27 years. : : : Regarding babies...I DO hibernate them the first year, I have never lost a hatchling or juvenile in hibernation. If you look at the life cycle of G. agassizii in the wild...they're prepared for it, and tortoises have been living (not struggling) and doing a pretty good job of it all by themselves for thousands of years out here. : : : Annie

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