Well.....

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Posted by Annie Lancaster-TortoiseAid on August 20, 2001 at 15:43:02:

In Reply to: Annie--what is your secret recipe? also . . . posted by Lisa and Virgil on August 19, 2001 at 20:55:49:

Hi there...

The "secret recipe" is a complex issue and subject to different points of view.

I formulate and feed diets that very closely resemble what wild tortoises eat. I've done so for many, many years. I must admit I do have a definite advantage having spent major time in the field observing wild feeding patterns on several continents. Here (home plate)is the Western Mojave Desert. I needn't travel far to see at all parts of the feeding/breeding season what's going on out here as well. Having spent my entire life around turtles and tortoises (as well as a good education) has given me important insight into the REAL needs of these animals, not what most humans "perceive" to be what's best for them.

Part of the "secret recipe" is realizing that these are NOT mammals and do not need to be fed heaping plates of foods (even "good foods") daily! Humans tend to feel sorry for a tortoise that is browsing (or even appears to be begging.)

Humans that make elaborate plates of food for their tortoises are literally killing them with kindness. I have a sulcata that came in a couple of weeks ago from a northen state. Poor thing looks like the Great Pyramids at Giza! Although it wasn't necessarily fed "bad items" the items that were fed (which according to the previous owner were "specifically formulated for sulcata tortoises") caused MBD, major pyramiding and a bladder stone. :-( I wished I could scan and post this x-ray.

The most important points to remember are:

1. "There is NO ONE out there in the wild with a salad shooter!" I've yet to see desert lettuce, endive, escarole, etc. etc. etc. and have not gone to the supermarket for a tortoise in many, many years. Everything that tortoises here eat (whether my own shellmets or rehabbers) is either picked from the desert, or is grown for them. No exceptions, ever.

2. Remember where the tortoise is from, and think of what is and isn't out there growing for it to forage on. Foraging is not eating a ton of food, foraging is walking, grazing, napping, grazing, etc. Tortosies often go LONG distances trying to find something to eat, they for the most part do NOT live in lush green pastures! It may takethem several days of browsing to find what they need, and they utilize it VERY well.

3. Items need to be low in protein and moisture. NO alfalfa (ever), very light on legumes and only after well established (3 to 4 months), and at the time of year that green vegetation would normally be available. Here in the Mojave as well as much of Africa the "green" season is VERY short, here it lasts about 4 weeks max. After that there is nothing green to eat out there, the wildflowers are gone for the year with the exception of a few that can withstand drought and heat, etc. By June 1, most all arid species here are refusing green matter for the most part and are actively seeking out drier grasses, forbs, etc. needed for proper utilization and digestion.

I am attaching a pic of Western Mojave Desert habitat. Look closely at this picture. It isn't a lush, protein filled, wet grazing area, and tortoises have survived in this very location for MILLIONS of years with no human intervention. (and as a result, no pyramiding, MBD, bladder stones, renal failure, etc.)

4. Hatchlings IMHO in captivity are WAY overfed.
A tortosie that starts off wrong is going to have health problems sooner or later, end of story. I get them in here all the time. A wild hatchling does one thing 95% of the time. HIDE. It isn't out eating all sorts of food...it is protecting itself from predators. Many tortoises pip outta their nests late in the season and almost immediately go into hibernation. Others estivate through very hot weather, because if they don't, they'll bake in the heat. Eating cycles are opportunistic and short.

I do use calcium, only rep-cal and cuttlebone, never EVER Anything else. I've used Rep-Cal since it's infancy and it is an awesome supplement. Animals undergoing rehab that cannot go outside at all DO get D3, others that can go out and bask never get it, the sun provides plenty of D3 for them. I haven't seen Virgil's photos...where can I find them?

If you want or need more info please feel free to e-mail me.

Annie

I have calcium and calcium with D3. When do you recommend each? and how are they different? Did you look at Virgil's photos? Do you have an opinion?

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: Hi there... : The "secret recipe" is a complex issue and subject to different points of view. : I formulate and feed diets that very closely resemble what wild tortoises eat. I've done so for many, many years. I must admit I do have a definite advantage having spent major time in the field observing wild feeding patterns on several continents. Here (home plate)is the Western Mojave Desert. I needn't travel far to see at all parts of the feeding/breeding season what's going on out here as well. Having spent my entire life around turtles and tortoises (as well as a good education) has given me important insight into the REAL needs of these animals, not what most humans "perceive" to be what's best for them. : Part of the "secret recipe" is realizing that these are NOT mammals and do not need to be fed heaping plates of foods (even "good foods") daily! Humans tend to feel sorry for a tortoise that is browsing (or even appears to be begging.) : Humans that make elaborate plates of food for their tortoises are literally killing them with kindness. I have a sulcata that came in a couple of weeks ago from a northen state. Poor thing looks like the Great Pyramids at Giza! Although it wasn't necessarily fed "bad items" the items that were fed (which according to the previous owner were "specifically formulated for sulcata tortoises") caused MBD, major pyramiding and a bladder stone. :-( I wished I could scan and post this x-ray. : The most important points to remember are: : 1. "There is NO ONE out there in the wild with a salad shooter!" I've yet to see desert lettuce, endive, escarole, etc. etc. etc. and have not gone to the supermarket for a tortoise in many, many years. Everything that tortoises here eat (whether my own shellmets or rehabbers) is either picked from the desert, or is grown for them. No exceptions, ever. : 2. Remember where the tortoise is from, and think of what is and isn't out there growing for it to forage on. Foraging is not eating a ton of food, foraging is walking, grazing, napping, grazing, etc. Tortosies often go LONG distances trying to find something to eat, they for the most part do NOT live in lush green pastures! It may takethem several days of browsing to find what they need, and they utilize it VERY well. : 3. Items need to be low in protein and moisture. NO alfalfa (ever), very light on legumes and only after well established (3 to 4 months), and at the time of year that green vegetation would normally be available. Here in the Mojave as well as much of Africa the "green" season is VERY short, here it lasts about 4 weeks max. After that there is nothing green to eat out there, the wildflowers are gone for the year with the exception of a few that can withstand drought and heat, etc. By June 1, most all arid species here are refusing green matter for the most part and are actively seeking out drier grasses, forbs, etc. needed for proper utilization and digestion. : I am attaching a pic of Western Mojave Desert habitat. Look closely at this picture. It isn't a lush, protein filled, wet grazing area, and tortoises have survived in this very location for MILLIONS of years with no human intervention. (and as a result, no pyramiding, MBD, bladder stones, renal failure, etc.) : 4. Hatchlings IMHO in captivity are WAY overfed. : A tortosie that starts off wrong is going to have health problems sooner or later, end of story. I get them in here all the time. A wild hatchling does one thing 95% of the time. HIDE. It isn't out eating all sorts of food...it is protecting itself from predators. Many tortoises pip outta their nests late in the season and almost immediately go into hibernation. Others estivate through very hot weather, because if they don't, they'll bake in the heat. Eating cycles are opportunistic and short. : I do use calcium, only rep-cal and cuttlebone, never EVER Anything else. I've used Rep-Cal since it's infancy and it is an awesome supplement. Animals undergoing rehab that cannot go outside at all DO get D3, others that can go out and bask never get it, the sun provides plenty of D3 for them. I haven't seen Virgil's photos...where can I find them? : If you want or need more info please feel free to e-mail me. : Annie : : I have calcium and calcium with D3. When do you recommend each? and how are they different? Did you look at Virgil's photos? Do you have an opinion?

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